THE CONVERSATIONS |
|
KISA KAVASS
Sunday, July 21, 2024
Edition ONE Gallery
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Pilar Law, Edition ONE Gallery Owner and Curator, welcomes LEICAS & SCOTCH to the gallery for Mark Berndt's conversation with Photographer. Poet. Filmmaker - Kisa Kavass
All images © Kisa Kavass | All Rights Reserved Images may not be reproduced without written permission from the photographer.
Sunday, July 21, 2024
Edition ONE Gallery
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Pilar Law, Edition ONE Gallery Owner and Curator, welcomes LEICAS & SCOTCH to the gallery for Mark Berndt's conversation with Photographer. Poet. Filmmaker - Kisa Kavass
All images © Kisa Kavass | All Rights Reserved Images may not be reproduced without written permission from the photographer.
MB:
Kisa Kavass was born in Adelaide, South Australia. At five, her family moved to the US and explored a number of states before settling down in Nashville, Tennessee. Their travels gave her a strong curiosity about the world, nature and art and the understanding that they are all intertwined. Her passion for creating an art led her to photography, and she's worked as a professional portrait and fine art photographer for over 20 years. She's taught workshops on bookmaking, oil hand-tinting and alternative Polaroid processes. Her fine art work has been featured in magazines and in group and solo shows across the United States. Kisa volunteers with animal rescue groups, both as a foster for dogs needing adoption and as a photographer. Her love of animals led her in search of wild horses, impressed with the raw beauty of the land in the magical wild mustangs. Wild horses are threatened by roundups from the Bureau of Land Management, despite protections in place since 1971. Kisa hopes that her images will inspire everyone to become more engaged in the plight of the herds and protecting our wild lands. She also documents domestic horse rescue in Tennessee, horses in need of protection from abuse in need of love and care to help them begin new lives.
KK:
Hi.
Kisa Kavass was born in Adelaide, South Australia. At five, her family moved to the US and explored a number of states before settling down in Nashville, Tennessee. Their travels gave her a strong curiosity about the world, nature and art and the understanding that they are all intertwined. Her passion for creating an art led her to photography, and she's worked as a professional portrait and fine art photographer for over 20 years. She's taught workshops on bookmaking, oil hand-tinting and alternative Polaroid processes. Her fine art work has been featured in magazines and in group and solo shows across the United States. Kisa volunteers with animal rescue groups, both as a foster for dogs needing adoption and as a photographer. Her love of animals led her in search of wild horses, impressed with the raw beauty of the land in the magical wild mustangs. Wild horses are threatened by roundups from the Bureau of Land Management, despite protections in place since 1971. Kisa hopes that her images will inspire everyone to become more engaged in the plight of the herds and protecting our wild lands. She also documents domestic horse rescue in Tennessee, horses in need of protection from abuse in need of love and care to help them begin new lives.
KK:
Hi.
KISA KAVASS
MB:
So I guess I want to start off with with looking at your horses, because that's most of what's represented in the gallery. It’s kind of what a lot of people, I think, know of your work.
And we did have a print of this amazing stallion here to show, but - unfortunately (hehe) — it’s sold!
MB:
So I guess I want to start off with with looking at your horses, because that's most of what's represented in the gallery. It’s kind of what a lot of people, I think, know of your work.
And we did have a print of this amazing stallion here to show, but - unfortunately (hehe) — it’s sold!
KK:
Oh!
But I just I just brought some 12 by 12’s of that same image.
MB:
Oh good. So and congratulations on the sale because that was a big deal. That was a…
KK:
Yeah, it was a 30 by 30”.
MB:
Beautiful. It looks like a painting. I always hate to say that because everybody always says your photography looks like a painting. Like it's not okay for it to look like a photograph.
KK:
But it's surprising because it didn't have much work to it. It looked like a painting when I shot it. Yeah.
MB:
So a lot of your work in the gallery is horses. Your website right now in its current state says you're an equine photographer. The photographers I know who specialize in horse photography are doing really technical stuff. They have to catch the rider, and the horse, in the right exact pose and stuff like that. But you're not doing it that way, right? You're doing wild horses…
Oh!
But I just I just brought some 12 by 12’s of that same image.
MB:
Oh good. So and congratulations on the sale because that was a big deal. That was a…
KK:
Yeah, it was a 30 by 30”.
MB:
Beautiful. It looks like a painting. I always hate to say that because everybody always says your photography looks like a painting. Like it's not okay for it to look like a photograph.
KK:
But it's surprising because it didn't have much work to it. It looked like a painting when I shot it. Yeah.
MB:
So a lot of your work in the gallery is horses. Your website right now in its current state says you're an equine photographer. The photographers I know who specialize in horse photography are doing really technical stuff. They have to catch the rider, and the horse, in the right exact pose and stuff like that. But you're not doing it that way, right? You're doing wild horses…
KK:
I do wild horses. I do domestic horses, but not for shows. I mean, if it is, sometimes I'll do that, but it's not going to be the way that people want it. Just for sale or for books that have the show horses in there. So it's trying to get something a little different out of the horses.
MB:
And so. So what are you going for? A lot of it's very moody, right?
KK:
It's always moody. Always moody, because I'm always moody. And just looking at more of the abstract. Horses were always as a used as an art form, and they're beautiful. They seem to have something that everyone is attracted to. Dogs are great. Birds. I've got a parakeet picture back there. But the horse is something that everyone seems to go to and find something that they find beautiful, because horses are always beautiful and in the abstract form or just straight on, they have this beauty to them.
MB:
So when you're shooting wild horses, what's a day like or what's it like for wild horses? You have to find the herd. You have to be mobile somehow, right? Weather. I mean, seems like there's a lot of factors involved.
KK:
Well, we always like cloudy days and rain is okay if it doesn't rain too much and wash out the roads. But we’re usually waking up very early, before it gets light, getting out to the range. In Utah, the range that I go to would take about an hour to get to. So we're getting up and as the hour progresses, as we're driving towards the horses, you can see the sun coming up over the mountains. And if we're lucky, when we drive onto the gravel road that leads to the horses, we'll see some horses. If not, if we're not that lucky, then we have to drive further along and we're looking. And every once in a while we'll see bushes and we'll go, Oh, there they are. And then we realize they're bushes.
And then when we do find the horses, we just, you know, we get out, we try to, you know, follow them. Most of the time they'll stay around in the area. They'll head to a waterhole, at times. We kind of get to know what they're going to be doing during that day. Sometimes they go to the waterhole early, sometimes it's evening. So it just depends. And then we spend all day out there and wait until it gets dark to head back.
MB:
Is there a defined area that the wild horses are in?
KK:
There what's called HMAs? So herd management areas, usually owned by BLM. National Forest also owns the lands that some of the wild horses are on, and those areas then are somewhat fenced off. In Wyoming, there's private lands intertwined with the BLM lands, and that causes problems with the ranchers that are wanting the horses rounded up, which is unfortunate because they don't need to be rounded up and they should be left alone. And there's thousands and millions of dollars being used up to round up these horses, put them into holding pens, and then let them sit there. Some of them are adopted out, some of them go to slaughter, and some of them are shipped off to ranchers, where the ranchers then are paid millions of dollars to keep the wild horses. But the herd management areas - there’s quite a few in Utah, Wyoming… Nevada has some. Oregon and Idaho and Arizona are mostly the areas where you can find the horses. New Mexico did have wild horses. There's still a few around, but most of them are living in neighborhoods
MB:
Yeah - I was just down in Ruidoso -they've got wild horses down there.
KK:
Placitas horses. I've seen them and I've seen them in people's driveways. Oh, they're wild, and there's not that many anyway. There are not many left.
AUDIENCE COMMENT:
When I was a child I remember camping on Assateague Island, and I did see wild horses,
KK:
And they're still there and they still do the round up - what they call the round up - there. I've never gone to see those. I tend to find the western horses a lot more fascinating. They're much more a variety of colors and and character to them. They are more wild.
AUDIENCE COMMENT:
And I should say they were in the Chesapeake Bay area.
KK:
And they go down the coast into North Carolina also.
MB:
So are you shooting these primarily for fine art? You're working with these organizations, and some of these photographs go on the websites, and they're used for fundraising?
KK:
Well, I have friends that have a mustang sanctuary and several that have mustang sanctuaries. I will shoot pictures of those for websites. Those pictures are probably not necessarily art, but every once in a while I can get something really good with those pictures. But most of the time those are for their website. Just to show the horses and to show what kind of conditions are. A lot of them - even sanctuaries - are having a hard time now. They don't have enough money for the hay because of drought. They have to feed now during the summer, not just at winter. And the hay is so expensive. I brought them a several thousand dollar donation just recently up to Colorado and they spent $1,000 on, I think, it was about eight big bales. They’re rectangular, but they're huge. But that was $1,000. And it's going to last maybe two weeks. That's about it.
MB:
Do you go back to the same places to photograph?
KK:
I do. Yeah. I get to know the horses.
MB:
I was going to say, are there families? Do you get to see young ones grow up? Do they have = do you name them?
KK:
I don't really like to name them as much, but other people do. And so there was one horse in Utah that everyone called Old Man. He was given that name a long time ago. What I don't understand is if he was called Old Man and they gave him that name a long time ago…
Well, he's now gone now. But there was one that I met the very first time I went out. The first morning as the sun was coming up over the mountains there was a band - a band is the family of a stallion, with maybe a another stallion - they call him a lieutenant stallion - and then of course the mares and babies. And one of the bands was coming out from the mountains and they had just had a little one and they named her Scarlett. And I've watched Scarlett grow up. And Scarlett actually her mom was rounded up in 2021, I believe, and Scarlett escaped. So Scarlett was not rounded up and she's still out there in Utah. And she's since then had young ones, too.
MB:
The stuff that you that you do that is for the organizations?
KK:
Mm hmm.
MB:
Do you feel like your your pictures are making a difference? I mean, do they get the idea out there to people who don't know anything about this?
KK:
I think they do. I think it does make a difference. Just like with dogs in the shelters, that a picture of a dog and the eyes, you know, really makes a difference. I think, with horses, yeah, it definitely makes a difference. I mean, people get involved in it more if they see pictures. And back in Tennessee I had a place where I would show my work and people would come in and they'd look at the pictures and then they'd hear the stories. Most of them didn't even know that there were wild mustangs left in the United States. A lot of people don't know that. A lot of people - it’s so far removed from them. And yet when they find out, they are surprised and a lot of them get involved. They do get involved in it.
MB:
Yeah. We were talking outside - do you feel like you're moving on from this or you want to add on to this or approach it in a new way or something? How long you doing this?
KK:
I did have a small gallery outside of Nashville, Tennessee, and people walk in and go, “Oh, you must really like horses.”
And I said, Well, I like horses. Yeah. I ride a little bit. I have ridden a little bit. I don't ride anymore that much. And yeah, I like horses, but I was not one of those kids, those girls growing up that had horses and wanted to always have a pony. I was not like that. Dogs were my thing and. And cats too.
But yeah, I think that I will always photograph them because there's something that is so - they're an art form themselves. I think they really are. They have that kind of mystery. And again, I like Moody. I can always make them in moody and, and get that feel going.
MB:
They feel like they're stories.
KK:
There are stories to every one of these pictures. Stories of my getting to take the picture, but also stories about the horses and what they go through. So it is something that I will continue because I like stories. I think that that's what all of us are drawn to is stories. I think the other thing about horses is that they’re in a place. So for instance, especially the wild ones, that's their place, that's their home, that's their land. And you know, in Utah or Wyoming or even here, and the Placitas Horses… We as human beings also are drawn to places, places that we remember from our youth or places that we imagine, places that we want to be in the future, places that we might think we've been to but don't remember or think that I've been here before, or have I? So maybe in another life, who knows? But I think that that's something that horses, especially the wild ones evoke. And that's the thing - I would always like to photograph wild horses because it's not just the horses, I t’s the place where they are.
MB:
And the whole way they live.
KK:
Oh yeah.
MB:
Other animals besides horses? You’ve photographed foxes?
KK:
Just recently, I always wanted to photograph foxes and I was up outside of Fort Collins, Colorado, and… swift foxes… Does anyone know about Swift Foxes? I never knew about Swift Foxes. In Tennessee. we have the typical red fox. Maybe gray foxes are out somewhere in the Appalachian Mountains, but never I've never really been able to photograph them. Swift foxes are amazing creatures. First of all, they're called swift because they are swift. They are fast runners, but they're also smaller and they're very catlike. In fact, I felt like I was almost in the African tundra because we were right there in this part of Colorado that's at the foothills of the Rockies, and it's kind of hilly, very grassy, but brown dried up grass, lots of rattlesnakes. You have to watch where you step. And all of a sudden, these little foxes would be peering through the grass. And at the beginning, you can't tell that they're foxes. They do look like little cats, like lynx almost. And they were very curious, but kind of shy. You couldn't get too close and they would be jumping all around playing with each other, especially in the kind of late afternoon and evenings. And so they were interesting to photograph. Actually the last day there I decided I'm just going to go up to, as far as I can, up to one. And I followed all the way close to the den and they were playing with something and it ended up it was a dead bunny, a very dried up dead bunny. And they were flinging it around and having a fun time. And all of the other ones ran and went into their den. The dens are - the holes are kind of small. They keep them that way because they're small enough and skinny enough to get in, but a badger, which is one of their predators, can't get in as easily. But one stayed out and it kind of got down, kind of wiggled its bottom a little bit, looked at me and started approaching me. And I thought, Oh, okay, this is great! And then it just quickly turned and ran and ducked into the hole. But they have black tips on their tails and just these little markings on their faces that are just very interesting.
MB:
The horses, the foxes - photographing wild animals. Can you predict kind of what they're going to do, where they're going to be, where you need to be for light, for instance, in order to get the images that you get?
KK:
Oh God, wild horses and light. Whatever the day gives you, and a lot of times it is going to be sunny and not the favorite time. And then sometimes the cloud comes over and it's great and we all just go, “Yeah.” But really, we follow them around and I get to know where they'll end up. I know that there's a waterhole close by that they've been using and so then we kind of time it by the day and figure at a certain time of day they will be going to the waterhole. So a lot of times I'll end up driving to the waterhole and just waiting for them. And then that's fun to see because they will actually start coming in a line and it's usually the lead mare that decides, okay, it's time to go to the waterhole. And so she leads them and they all do pretty much follow in a line. I've gotten pictures of like 150, 160 coming to the waterhole, dust flying up - just amazing to watch. They don't even care - I can get pretty close to them too. I mean, you want to stay far enough away but I've had it where sometimes some of the stallions will start fighting and they'll be off in the distance, but they'll start running and the mares all will part ways. And I'm standing there with the stallions coming right at me! But you know, what I find with mostly wild horses is that I'm not afraid of the wild horses. I'm more afraid of domestic horses than wild horses. I think domestic horses are a little bit more volatile. And the wild horses, wild mustangs or some of the other wild horses - I’ve never really been afraid that they would come and run right into me.
I do wild horses. I do domestic horses, but not for shows. I mean, if it is, sometimes I'll do that, but it's not going to be the way that people want it. Just for sale or for books that have the show horses in there. So it's trying to get something a little different out of the horses.
MB:
And so. So what are you going for? A lot of it's very moody, right?
KK:
It's always moody. Always moody, because I'm always moody. And just looking at more of the abstract. Horses were always as a used as an art form, and they're beautiful. They seem to have something that everyone is attracted to. Dogs are great. Birds. I've got a parakeet picture back there. But the horse is something that everyone seems to go to and find something that they find beautiful, because horses are always beautiful and in the abstract form or just straight on, they have this beauty to them.
MB:
So when you're shooting wild horses, what's a day like or what's it like for wild horses? You have to find the herd. You have to be mobile somehow, right? Weather. I mean, seems like there's a lot of factors involved.
KK:
Well, we always like cloudy days and rain is okay if it doesn't rain too much and wash out the roads. But we’re usually waking up very early, before it gets light, getting out to the range. In Utah, the range that I go to would take about an hour to get to. So we're getting up and as the hour progresses, as we're driving towards the horses, you can see the sun coming up over the mountains. And if we're lucky, when we drive onto the gravel road that leads to the horses, we'll see some horses. If not, if we're not that lucky, then we have to drive further along and we're looking. And every once in a while we'll see bushes and we'll go, Oh, there they are. And then we realize they're bushes.
And then when we do find the horses, we just, you know, we get out, we try to, you know, follow them. Most of the time they'll stay around in the area. They'll head to a waterhole, at times. We kind of get to know what they're going to be doing during that day. Sometimes they go to the waterhole early, sometimes it's evening. So it just depends. And then we spend all day out there and wait until it gets dark to head back.
MB:
Is there a defined area that the wild horses are in?
KK:
There what's called HMAs? So herd management areas, usually owned by BLM. National Forest also owns the lands that some of the wild horses are on, and those areas then are somewhat fenced off. In Wyoming, there's private lands intertwined with the BLM lands, and that causes problems with the ranchers that are wanting the horses rounded up, which is unfortunate because they don't need to be rounded up and they should be left alone. And there's thousands and millions of dollars being used up to round up these horses, put them into holding pens, and then let them sit there. Some of them are adopted out, some of them go to slaughter, and some of them are shipped off to ranchers, where the ranchers then are paid millions of dollars to keep the wild horses. But the herd management areas - there’s quite a few in Utah, Wyoming… Nevada has some. Oregon and Idaho and Arizona are mostly the areas where you can find the horses. New Mexico did have wild horses. There's still a few around, but most of them are living in neighborhoods
MB:
Yeah - I was just down in Ruidoso -they've got wild horses down there.
KK:
Placitas horses. I've seen them and I've seen them in people's driveways. Oh, they're wild, and there's not that many anyway. There are not many left.
AUDIENCE COMMENT:
When I was a child I remember camping on Assateague Island, and I did see wild horses,
KK:
And they're still there and they still do the round up - what they call the round up - there. I've never gone to see those. I tend to find the western horses a lot more fascinating. They're much more a variety of colors and and character to them. They are more wild.
AUDIENCE COMMENT:
And I should say they were in the Chesapeake Bay area.
KK:
And they go down the coast into North Carolina also.
MB:
So are you shooting these primarily for fine art? You're working with these organizations, and some of these photographs go on the websites, and they're used for fundraising?
KK:
Well, I have friends that have a mustang sanctuary and several that have mustang sanctuaries. I will shoot pictures of those for websites. Those pictures are probably not necessarily art, but every once in a while I can get something really good with those pictures. But most of the time those are for their website. Just to show the horses and to show what kind of conditions are. A lot of them - even sanctuaries - are having a hard time now. They don't have enough money for the hay because of drought. They have to feed now during the summer, not just at winter. And the hay is so expensive. I brought them a several thousand dollar donation just recently up to Colorado and they spent $1,000 on, I think, it was about eight big bales. They’re rectangular, but they're huge. But that was $1,000. And it's going to last maybe two weeks. That's about it.
MB:
Do you go back to the same places to photograph?
KK:
I do. Yeah. I get to know the horses.
MB:
I was going to say, are there families? Do you get to see young ones grow up? Do they have = do you name them?
KK:
I don't really like to name them as much, but other people do. And so there was one horse in Utah that everyone called Old Man. He was given that name a long time ago. What I don't understand is if he was called Old Man and they gave him that name a long time ago…
Well, he's now gone now. But there was one that I met the very first time I went out. The first morning as the sun was coming up over the mountains there was a band - a band is the family of a stallion, with maybe a another stallion - they call him a lieutenant stallion - and then of course the mares and babies. And one of the bands was coming out from the mountains and they had just had a little one and they named her Scarlett. And I've watched Scarlett grow up. And Scarlett actually her mom was rounded up in 2021, I believe, and Scarlett escaped. So Scarlett was not rounded up and she's still out there in Utah. And she's since then had young ones, too.
MB:
The stuff that you that you do that is for the organizations?
KK:
Mm hmm.
MB:
Do you feel like your your pictures are making a difference? I mean, do they get the idea out there to people who don't know anything about this?
KK:
I think they do. I think it does make a difference. Just like with dogs in the shelters, that a picture of a dog and the eyes, you know, really makes a difference. I think, with horses, yeah, it definitely makes a difference. I mean, people get involved in it more if they see pictures. And back in Tennessee I had a place where I would show my work and people would come in and they'd look at the pictures and then they'd hear the stories. Most of them didn't even know that there were wild mustangs left in the United States. A lot of people don't know that. A lot of people - it’s so far removed from them. And yet when they find out, they are surprised and a lot of them get involved. They do get involved in it.
MB:
Yeah. We were talking outside - do you feel like you're moving on from this or you want to add on to this or approach it in a new way or something? How long you doing this?
KK:
I did have a small gallery outside of Nashville, Tennessee, and people walk in and go, “Oh, you must really like horses.”
And I said, Well, I like horses. Yeah. I ride a little bit. I have ridden a little bit. I don't ride anymore that much. And yeah, I like horses, but I was not one of those kids, those girls growing up that had horses and wanted to always have a pony. I was not like that. Dogs were my thing and. And cats too.
But yeah, I think that I will always photograph them because there's something that is so - they're an art form themselves. I think they really are. They have that kind of mystery. And again, I like Moody. I can always make them in moody and, and get that feel going.
MB:
They feel like they're stories.
KK:
There are stories to every one of these pictures. Stories of my getting to take the picture, but also stories about the horses and what they go through. So it is something that I will continue because I like stories. I think that that's what all of us are drawn to is stories. I think the other thing about horses is that they’re in a place. So for instance, especially the wild ones, that's their place, that's their home, that's their land. And you know, in Utah or Wyoming or even here, and the Placitas Horses… We as human beings also are drawn to places, places that we remember from our youth or places that we imagine, places that we want to be in the future, places that we might think we've been to but don't remember or think that I've been here before, or have I? So maybe in another life, who knows? But I think that that's something that horses, especially the wild ones evoke. And that's the thing - I would always like to photograph wild horses because it's not just the horses, I t’s the place where they are.
MB:
And the whole way they live.
KK:
Oh yeah.
MB:
Other animals besides horses? You’ve photographed foxes?
KK:
Just recently, I always wanted to photograph foxes and I was up outside of Fort Collins, Colorado, and… swift foxes… Does anyone know about Swift Foxes? I never knew about Swift Foxes. In Tennessee. we have the typical red fox. Maybe gray foxes are out somewhere in the Appalachian Mountains, but never I've never really been able to photograph them. Swift foxes are amazing creatures. First of all, they're called swift because they are swift. They are fast runners, but they're also smaller and they're very catlike. In fact, I felt like I was almost in the African tundra because we were right there in this part of Colorado that's at the foothills of the Rockies, and it's kind of hilly, very grassy, but brown dried up grass, lots of rattlesnakes. You have to watch where you step. And all of a sudden, these little foxes would be peering through the grass. And at the beginning, you can't tell that they're foxes. They do look like little cats, like lynx almost. And they were very curious, but kind of shy. You couldn't get too close and they would be jumping all around playing with each other, especially in the kind of late afternoon and evenings. And so they were interesting to photograph. Actually the last day there I decided I'm just going to go up to, as far as I can, up to one. And I followed all the way close to the den and they were playing with something and it ended up it was a dead bunny, a very dried up dead bunny. And they were flinging it around and having a fun time. And all of the other ones ran and went into their den. The dens are - the holes are kind of small. They keep them that way because they're small enough and skinny enough to get in, but a badger, which is one of their predators, can't get in as easily. But one stayed out and it kind of got down, kind of wiggled its bottom a little bit, looked at me and started approaching me. And I thought, Oh, okay, this is great! And then it just quickly turned and ran and ducked into the hole. But they have black tips on their tails and just these little markings on their faces that are just very interesting.
MB:
The horses, the foxes - photographing wild animals. Can you predict kind of what they're going to do, where they're going to be, where you need to be for light, for instance, in order to get the images that you get?
KK:
Oh God, wild horses and light. Whatever the day gives you, and a lot of times it is going to be sunny and not the favorite time. And then sometimes the cloud comes over and it's great and we all just go, “Yeah.” But really, we follow them around and I get to know where they'll end up. I know that there's a waterhole close by that they've been using and so then we kind of time it by the day and figure at a certain time of day they will be going to the waterhole. So a lot of times I'll end up driving to the waterhole and just waiting for them. And then that's fun to see because they will actually start coming in a line and it's usually the lead mare that decides, okay, it's time to go to the waterhole. And so she leads them and they all do pretty much follow in a line. I've gotten pictures of like 150, 160 coming to the waterhole, dust flying up - just amazing to watch. They don't even care - I can get pretty close to them too. I mean, you want to stay far enough away but I've had it where sometimes some of the stallions will start fighting and they'll be off in the distance, but they'll start running and the mares all will part ways. And I'm standing there with the stallions coming right at me! But you know, what I find with mostly wild horses is that I'm not afraid of the wild horses. I'm more afraid of domestic horses than wild horses. I think domestic horses are a little bit more volatile. And the wild horses, wild mustangs or some of the other wild horses - I’ve never really been afraid that they would come and run right into me.
MB:
Well, they seem to have a great understanding of back light, somehow. I think that's really important. Let's move ahead to a different group of images that you have in the gallery as well. I call these “Stories and Models”, and I do get this sense of storytelling, of a sense of place and a sense of kind of wondering what's going on or what's coming next. Tell us about this work.
Well, they seem to have a great understanding of back light, somehow. I think that's really important. Let's move ahead to a different group of images that you have in the gallery as well. I call these “Stories and Models”, and I do get this sense of storytelling, of a sense of place and a sense of kind of wondering what's going on or what's coming next. Tell us about this work.
KK:
Well, digital came along and I thought, I need to… I was doing portrait photography but I always loved telling stories. And so I wanted to find something else that I could do, something that was mine. And again, we all are really storytellers. We all have stories. We all have these in our minds, even. And I just wanted to portray who I was and what my stories were. But I wanted people also to identify in their own way. So some of the pictures that I did, I didn't want them to just be my emotions. I wanted people could look at it and say, “Oh, wow, this reminds me of something that I was thinking of”, or “this reminds me of a time back when I was little or or as something that happened with my children or something that happened to me.” And so that was what I was trying to create.
But there again, I plan a little bit, but I don't plan at all. I had a model that I was using. I don't even want to I call her a model. She wasn't a model. She was a little friend of mine. She was younger. She was about 11 when she started with me. I was taking baby pictures of her when she was four or five, and we just continued and we became friends and we would just get in my car, I'd have just props and clothing in the back - she would bring some of her stuff too - and we would just go driving. And there was always a somewhat of a history. I think history is really important and some of these places have a history, but it's a quiet history. It's not in books necessarily. It's not even in the tourist books or guides of, let's say, Nashville or Santa Fe maybe. It’s places where - every place has a history, doesn't it? Every tree has a history. And so I would try to find these places that were maybe offbeat or had a history to them, but were being neglected or were going to be torn down - a lot of them ended up being torn down. That barn. It was a dance barn. It was a wonderful place called Primm Springs. And it was a place that people used to go to in about the 1940s - 1950s, just to come to to take of the waters. They had sulphur water there, five different kinds of sulphur water. And so we would go to places like that and just try to recreate something just to show people that these places still exist, that there's still a history that doesn't die. And just because the places are, you know, maybe falling apart or or are now gone, there are some spirits still there. And I think that's what I was trying to show. This actually was in as in San Francisco, and it was one of the bunkers used during World War Two. And so I just wanted to bring people to mind that history is ongoing.
MB:
So do you scout the locations and then you decide you're going to go back and shoot someplace?
KK:
Sometimes. But sometimes it’s just random and we would just go find things sometimes. There were places that I knew definitely that I would be going to, but most of the time, you know, like this place - I knew it was there. I don't say I scouted. I just would go visit.
MB:
So especially with this one girl that you were working with - in that she was not a model. She didn't come to it to model. Right. You guys were sort of collaborating and making stuff up as you went along? I think there's a real naive quality to a lot of this stuff. Very sort of sincere and not staged. It doesn't feel like you went there and set something up. It feels like kind of captured these things. That collaboration is a way you like to work?
KK:
Yeah.
MB:
Are you a director?
KK:
I direct a little bit. I mean, I have to at times and some of the things that she was doing, I would tell her to do something, but then she would go further with it. And so that was really nice, whenever she would do that. A lot of times it was really our thoughts together that we did. And and other “models” that I used were similar because they got into it, that it's a story, and they wanted to show something. They had that imagination, that desire play pretend - let’s go out there and pretend and have a fun time.
MB:
You did traditional portraiture. That's kind of like, you know, you’re pretty much going for something that's acceptable to a client for a certain need or whatever. This stuff - you go out and you don't really know what you're going to get when you’ve gone on an excursion like this. Right. It's all going to sort of unfold?
KK:
Yeah, but isn't that the exciting part of it? I can see the pictures happening at the time, I will just say to her, “Oh my God, that's it. We got it, we got it. That is it.” And you can see it. I mean, I think most of us can see it when there's something happening, that magic moment, you can you feel it, you see it. And so yeah. And the models get that feeling too. And then of course I go home and these days, of course now it's sitting at the computer, working at it.
MB:
You were a darkroom person. And you said so then digital came. So is this all digital work?
KK:
Most of those. A few might be film that I scanned, but most of it is digital.
MB:
What changed for you with digital? How did that impact your work?
KK:
Well, at first I didn't like it, and I fought it a lot, mainly because of the papers. I liked printing. I liked the darkroom paper I was using at that time. And the digital papers were terrible. So I fought it, but people kept on saying, “Oh, you have to go digital.” And for business I thought probably needed to do that. And then I actually came here, to Santa Fe, and did a workshop with Joyce Tennyson and she said, “You got to go digital.” Yeah. And if Joyce Tennyson says “You got to go digital.” Well, okay, I better go digital.
And she told me what camera to get. And so I went home and got that camera and went digital. And I must admit that now I like it. But that's mainly I, I like it because I'm still able to create what I want. I'm still doing - I'm not just shooting a picture and and putting it into Photoshop, doing a quick little adjustment. I work on all of these for hours and they go through so many different steps. My problem is I don't write those steps down a lot of times. So then I try to go back and recreate it and it's a little hard then, but it goes through so many steps. And then, of course, the papers too. And I know you're going to ask about the paper.
MB:
We're going to talk about process in a little bit. Yeah, Yeah. Because I do want to get into that. What was the paper that you liked in the darkroom? Was it Agfa Portriga?
KK:
No, it was the Agfa multi-contrast. Yeah. It has a little bit of tooth to it.
MB:
Yeah. There were some really great papers back in those days. DuPont had some really great papers as well. And Agfa.
KK:
It was the warm tone that I like. And I still like warm tone, now.
MB:
Do you feel like you have as much control or more control today? I mean, if you know that that's your sensibility, the look that you like, you can make that happen digitally now, right?
KK:
Mm hmm. Right.
But I think being in the darkroom helped. I think that I know that what I was trying to do in the darkroom definitely has helped in the digital darkroom.
MB:
Because you have that understanding?
KK:
Yeah. And even with color, because I used to print color. I did both the E papers and then also on Ilfochrome. I worked with that, and the filters you use for the color printing too. So people that have not had that experience, I don't think know or even understand it.
MB:
I think that's true. I think that if you've worked in film, there's an understanding of what a photograph is supposed to look like, and it's kind of about color saturation and contrast range and all the stuff that was more a little more contained in film than it is in digital. And people who haven't come from that and get into digital and just like sort of crank the saturation up because you can make it look really, really bright and bubbly on a screen…
KK:
And the sharpness. Oh, my goodness. The sharpness. People go crazy about sharpness. It becomes too crisp. I mean, I don't understand why they do that.
MB:
This work is mostly black and white or very muted color, right? That of course, is a decision you're making and you're shooting in color if you're shooting digital - or are you shooting monochrome?
KK:
No, I’m shooting digital color.
MB:
So that, again, is sensibility from darkroom stuff or just where you want to go with the mood?
KK:
Well, I shoot color because I think it's better to have all the information there. And I think if you're shooting in black and white, you're not having all the information. I'm not sure about that. But I think you lose something because if you take it into Photoshop and all the things that I'm doing to it is all the color. I think the color has some more because that's exactly what you're seeing. So I want to shoot exactly what I'm seeing and then I take it in to my digital darkroom and start working away. And it's almost like painting. I mean, I look at it as painting and I kind of tell people sometimes that especially working with it - people will say, “Oh, I don't know Photoshop. I don't know how to do it.” I say, “Well just start like it's like a blank sheet of paper and then just start working and adding things to it and and testing it out because that's what it is. You're starting with something that's almost blank in a way. And then you put the picture onto into the Photoshop and then you can start erasing, dodging, burning. My colors, I desaturate it a lot, because I did do a lot of work with Marshall oils and did a lot of hand tinting…
MB:
I actually and tinting of black and white prints…
KK:
Yeah. Or sepia. I usually did sepia tones, and so I did the Marshall oils and so I was trying to recreate that. So it's the same type of feel that I'm trying to get there.
MB:
In a lot of these, faces are hidden. Which I think makes it a more universal image, a universal story. Like anybody can identify with it. But do you consider this something like this a portrait, or is this storytelling?
KK:
Storytelling?
MB:
I agree.
KK:
Yeah, yeah.
It's a portrait of her, though. I mean, it is a portrait, but…
MB:
But she's kind of playing a role, though, right?
KK:
Yes. But she's doing what she wants to do. What is a portrait anyway? I mean, are portraits real?
MB:
I always find when you visit photographers websites and you look at their definitions, they've got a category of portraiture or people, they've got a category of fashion. And they get those things mixed up all the time, you know?
KK:
Well this girl here. And this place, also, is a place of history. They were mining a powder rock, and they left for the evening and they left equipment there. A spring opened up and filled it all up and so they were never able to go back into it. This young girl - I think this is in a story, but to her it’s a portrait. Because that was her feeling. That's what she wanted to do. I didn't have to really direct her. We just went and I said, Let's go. Just do what you want to do. Let's, let's play. Let's, let's see what happens.” She felt the the history and the mystery of the place - so that's her portrait. Maybe to others, it's not a portrait, but to her - I think she likes it as a portrait.
MB:
Cool.
We're going to slide into kit - your cameras. But like - in the previous image - you've got a lot of soft focus stuff going on here.
KK:
Right? I used lensbaby a lot there. Not as much anymore. Um, I don't know why.
Maybe because I lost it. Because I don't know where it is anymore.
MB:
So you sent me this picture of your kit?
Well, digital came along and I thought, I need to… I was doing portrait photography but I always loved telling stories. And so I wanted to find something else that I could do, something that was mine. And again, we all are really storytellers. We all have stories. We all have these in our minds, even. And I just wanted to portray who I was and what my stories were. But I wanted people also to identify in their own way. So some of the pictures that I did, I didn't want them to just be my emotions. I wanted people could look at it and say, “Oh, wow, this reminds me of something that I was thinking of”, or “this reminds me of a time back when I was little or or as something that happened with my children or something that happened to me.” And so that was what I was trying to create.
But there again, I plan a little bit, but I don't plan at all. I had a model that I was using. I don't even want to I call her a model. She wasn't a model. She was a little friend of mine. She was younger. She was about 11 when she started with me. I was taking baby pictures of her when she was four or five, and we just continued and we became friends and we would just get in my car, I'd have just props and clothing in the back - she would bring some of her stuff too - and we would just go driving. And there was always a somewhat of a history. I think history is really important and some of these places have a history, but it's a quiet history. It's not in books necessarily. It's not even in the tourist books or guides of, let's say, Nashville or Santa Fe maybe. It’s places where - every place has a history, doesn't it? Every tree has a history. And so I would try to find these places that were maybe offbeat or had a history to them, but were being neglected or were going to be torn down - a lot of them ended up being torn down. That barn. It was a dance barn. It was a wonderful place called Primm Springs. And it was a place that people used to go to in about the 1940s - 1950s, just to come to to take of the waters. They had sulphur water there, five different kinds of sulphur water. And so we would go to places like that and just try to recreate something just to show people that these places still exist, that there's still a history that doesn't die. And just because the places are, you know, maybe falling apart or or are now gone, there are some spirits still there. And I think that's what I was trying to show. This actually was in as in San Francisco, and it was one of the bunkers used during World War Two. And so I just wanted to bring people to mind that history is ongoing.
MB:
So do you scout the locations and then you decide you're going to go back and shoot someplace?
KK:
Sometimes. But sometimes it’s just random and we would just go find things sometimes. There were places that I knew definitely that I would be going to, but most of the time, you know, like this place - I knew it was there. I don't say I scouted. I just would go visit.
MB:
So especially with this one girl that you were working with - in that she was not a model. She didn't come to it to model. Right. You guys were sort of collaborating and making stuff up as you went along? I think there's a real naive quality to a lot of this stuff. Very sort of sincere and not staged. It doesn't feel like you went there and set something up. It feels like kind of captured these things. That collaboration is a way you like to work?
KK:
Yeah.
MB:
Are you a director?
KK:
I direct a little bit. I mean, I have to at times and some of the things that she was doing, I would tell her to do something, but then she would go further with it. And so that was really nice, whenever she would do that. A lot of times it was really our thoughts together that we did. And and other “models” that I used were similar because they got into it, that it's a story, and they wanted to show something. They had that imagination, that desire play pretend - let’s go out there and pretend and have a fun time.
MB:
You did traditional portraiture. That's kind of like, you know, you’re pretty much going for something that's acceptable to a client for a certain need or whatever. This stuff - you go out and you don't really know what you're going to get when you’ve gone on an excursion like this. Right. It's all going to sort of unfold?
KK:
Yeah, but isn't that the exciting part of it? I can see the pictures happening at the time, I will just say to her, “Oh my God, that's it. We got it, we got it. That is it.” And you can see it. I mean, I think most of us can see it when there's something happening, that magic moment, you can you feel it, you see it. And so yeah. And the models get that feeling too. And then of course I go home and these days, of course now it's sitting at the computer, working at it.
MB:
You were a darkroom person. And you said so then digital came. So is this all digital work?
KK:
Most of those. A few might be film that I scanned, but most of it is digital.
MB:
What changed for you with digital? How did that impact your work?
KK:
Well, at first I didn't like it, and I fought it a lot, mainly because of the papers. I liked printing. I liked the darkroom paper I was using at that time. And the digital papers were terrible. So I fought it, but people kept on saying, “Oh, you have to go digital.” And for business I thought probably needed to do that. And then I actually came here, to Santa Fe, and did a workshop with Joyce Tennyson and she said, “You got to go digital.” Yeah. And if Joyce Tennyson says “You got to go digital.” Well, okay, I better go digital.
And she told me what camera to get. And so I went home and got that camera and went digital. And I must admit that now I like it. But that's mainly I, I like it because I'm still able to create what I want. I'm still doing - I'm not just shooting a picture and and putting it into Photoshop, doing a quick little adjustment. I work on all of these for hours and they go through so many different steps. My problem is I don't write those steps down a lot of times. So then I try to go back and recreate it and it's a little hard then, but it goes through so many steps. And then, of course, the papers too. And I know you're going to ask about the paper.
MB:
We're going to talk about process in a little bit. Yeah, Yeah. Because I do want to get into that. What was the paper that you liked in the darkroom? Was it Agfa Portriga?
KK:
No, it was the Agfa multi-contrast. Yeah. It has a little bit of tooth to it.
MB:
Yeah. There were some really great papers back in those days. DuPont had some really great papers as well. And Agfa.
KK:
It was the warm tone that I like. And I still like warm tone, now.
MB:
Do you feel like you have as much control or more control today? I mean, if you know that that's your sensibility, the look that you like, you can make that happen digitally now, right?
KK:
Mm hmm. Right.
But I think being in the darkroom helped. I think that I know that what I was trying to do in the darkroom definitely has helped in the digital darkroom.
MB:
Because you have that understanding?
KK:
Yeah. And even with color, because I used to print color. I did both the E papers and then also on Ilfochrome. I worked with that, and the filters you use for the color printing too. So people that have not had that experience, I don't think know or even understand it.
MB:
I think that's true. I think that if you've worked in film, there's an understanding of what a photograph is supposed to look like, and it's kind of about color saturation and contrast range and all the stuff that was more a little more contained in film than it is in digital. And people who haven't come from that and get into digital and just like sort of crank the saturation up because you can make it look really, really bright and bubbly on a screen…
KK:
And the sharpness. Oh, my goodness. The sharpness. People go crazy about sharpness. It becomes too crisp. I mean, I don't understand why they do that.
MB:
This work is mostly black and white or very muted color, right? That of course, is a decision you're making and you're shooting in color if you're shooting digital - or are you shooting monochrome?
KK:
No, I’m shooting digital color.
MB:
So that, again, is sensibility from darkroom stuff or just where you want to go with the mood?
KK:
Well, I shoot color because I think it's better to have all the information there. And I think if you're shooting in black and white, you're not having all the information. I'm not sure about that. But I think you lose something because if you take it into Photoshop and all the things that I'm doing to it is all the color. I think the color has some more because that's exactly what you're seeing. So I want to shoot exactly what I'm seeing and then I take it in to my digital darkroom and start working away. And it's almost like painting. I mean, I look at it as painting and I kind of tell people sometimes that especially working with it - people will say, “Oh, I don't know Photoshop. I don't know how to do it.” I say, “Well just start like it's like a blank sheet of paper and then just start working and adding things to it and and testing it out because that's what it is. You're starting with something that's almost blank in a way. And then you put the picture onto into the Photoshop and then you can start erasing, dodging, burning. My colors, I desaturate it a lot, because I did do a lot of work with Marshall oils and did a lot of hand tinting…
MB:
I actually and tinting of black and white prints…
KK:
Yeah. Or sepia. I usually did sepia tones, and so I did the Marshall oils and so I was trying to recreate that. So it's the same type of feel that I'm trying to get there.
MB:
In a lot of these, faces are hidden. Which I think makes it a more universal image, a universal story. Like anybody can identify with it. But do you consider this something like this a portrait, or is this storytelling?
KK:
Storytelling?
MB:
I agree.
KK:
Yeah, yeah.
It's a portrait of her, though. I mean, it is a portrait, but…
MB:
But she's kind of playing a role, though, right?
KK:
Yes. But she's doing what she wants to do. What is a portrait anyway? I mean, are portraits real?
MB:
I always find when you visit photographers websites and you look at their definitions, they've got a category of portraiture or people, they've got a category of fashion. And they get those things mixed up all the time, you know?
KK:
Well this girl here. And this place, also, is a place of history. They were mining a powder rock, and they left for the evening and they left equipment there. A spring opened up and filled it all up and so they were never able to go back into it. This young girl - I think this is in a story, but to her it’s a portrait. Because that was her feeling. That's what she wanted to do. I didn't have to really direct her. We just went and I said, Let's go. Just do what you want to do. Let's, let's play. Let's, let's see what happens.” She felt the the history and the mystery of the place - so that's her portrait. Maybe to others, it's not a portrait, but to her - I think she likes it as a portrait.
MB:
Cool.
We're going to slide into kit - your cameras. But like - in the previous image - you've got a lot of soft focus stuff going on here.
KK:
Right? I used lensbaby a lot there. Not as much anymore. Um, I don't know why.
Maybe because I lost it. Because I don't know where it is anymore.
MB:
So you sent me this picture of your kit?
KK:
It's just very simple. That's it. And that little glittery thing there. One of my little friends that I photograph a lot lately gave that to me. So I said, “I'll keep it.”
MB:
So that's part of your camera bag. This looks like a long zoom. Is this kind of a horse kit?
KK:
Yeah. Oh, it's my kit for everything.
MB:
Oh, is it okay? Okay. Yeah. And you. So you're not using lensbaby or using filters or anything like that to soften things. Are you softening in post?
KK:
Sometimes I do. You know what I'm into lately is, like even when I was taking pictures of the foxes, is getting closed down where the grass gets in the way a little bit and it goes out of focus.
MB:
So again, not the pristine sharpness, not like a totally clean frame, you're trying to get a sense of place or something. I like to work with out-of-focus foreground stuff. It gives you a sense of kind of voyeurism - that you're not there taking a picture, but you're observing this event.
KK:
That's the thing. That's my new thing that I like to do now. I don't know why, but that's the thing. And I did do a little bit of softening in Photoshop at times, but then Pilar are told me not to, so I don't.
MB:
Yeah, well, she knows her stuff.
KK:
So she kinda told me, “Don't do that.” So I said, okay, I can't do that. So I try to do it just out in field.
MB:
So as a kind of extension of that - you write. And so you combine pictures and words and then your other processes - with a with a history in the darkroom, with a history of hand tinting - you told me that you actually coat fine art papers so that you can print with your digital printer. You coat them yourself.
KK:
Yes.
MB:
So tell us a little bit about that, because I didn't even I didn't know you could do that.
KK:
The whole reasoning for that was when, as I said, I didn't like digital because of the papers. Mostly that was the main issue. And so the papers can get so easily scratched, so easily dinged or, or they flake off and I didn't like that. And I thought, I've got to do something else, and I have no idea how I found this company. But it's a company called InkAid, and they had a way to - it was a emulsion. I had done liquid light before. So it's kind of similar to that, except you don't need to be in the dark to coat these papers because they're going through a digital printer. But I found this, it comes in small jugs or big jugs, and I started coating watercolor paper and testing it out and I liked it. And I found that actually it prints very nicely. It's also hearty. It it is much harder than any of the digital papers I found out there. And so I started working with that and doing that a lot more. So a of the pictures were done on that.
MB:
Do you then coated them afterwards as well - to, like, seal it?
KK:
I wax them. So I use Dorland's wax. So I wax it and then I'll buff it.
MB:
Like encaustic?
KK:
No - it's like a butter. It’s white and I just will rub it onto my print. I do spray the prints first, you know, with a spray to just make sure that the ink is set in. Because once I start rubbing it can rub through. And you want them dry too. So I will work on that. I will coat the papers, print on them. The coating is two coats you have to coat once, let it dry, coat again. Let it dry. Then I have to put it through a press and flatten it because the paper comes out wrinkled, and so I will then flatten it, put it through the printer and then once it's dry I will spray it and then I will wax it.
I had a problem though. One of the prints I just brought here, I kept in the car and the sun was hitting it and it did it a little something to the wax. And because they were in plastic, the plastic stuck to it. I don't have Dorland’s wax with me. I didn't bring it, so I guess I could go to the art store and get some and fix it. That the thing I like about these is that they can be fixed pretty easily. I mean, again, these prints are so much heatier. And of course the inks that I'm using are archival and the longevity of them is probably even more than, than silver gelatin prints these days - about the same or maybe more. And so yes, they're coated with the wax at the end. The wax also gives a little bit of a depth to it. It just makes it a little bit nicer. Instead of varnish, which I don't like to use as much.
MB:
It's not slick, it's not glossy. Right?
KK:
It could be. So I use a paper towel and I'll just rub it and rub, rub, rub. My arm muscles after a while will get really sore because if I'm doing a whole slew of them, I'm rubbing pretty hard on the prints
There's a photographer in Nashville that is known for actually printing and throwing his prints on the floor in front of people and just stepping on them and saying, See, this is the way it’s supposed to be. But he's not printing like I am. So my prints would be better and last longer than his. He liked adding that grit to them.
MB:
So here are a couple examples of encaustic, right?
It's just very simple. That's it. And that little glittery thing there. One of my little friends that I photograph a lot lately gave that to me. So I said, “I'll keep it.”
MB:
So that's part of your camera bag. This looks like a long zoom. Is this kind of a horse kit?
KK:
Yeah. Oh, it's my kit for everything.
MB:
Oh, is it okay? Okay. Yeah. And you. So you're not using lensbaby or using filters or anything like that to soften things. Are you softening in post?
KK:
Sometimes I do. You know what I'm into lately is, like even when I was taking pictures of the foxes, is getting closed down where the grass gets in the way a little bit and it goes out of focus.
MB:
So again, not the pristine sharpness, not like a totally clean frame, you're trying to get a sense of place or something. I like to work with out-of-focus foreground stuff. It gives you a sense of kind of voyeurism - that you're not there taking a picture, but you're observing this event.
KK:
That's the thing. That's my new thing that I like to do now. I don't know why, but that's the thing. And I did do a little bit of softening in Photoshop at times, but then Pilar are told me not to, so I don't.
MB:
Yeah, well, she knows her stuff.
KK:
So she kinda told me, “Don't do that.” So I said, okay, I can't do that. So I try to do it just out in field.
MB:
So as a kind of extension of that - you write. And so you combine pictures and words and then your other processes - with a with a history in the darkroom, with a history of hand tinting - you told me that you actually coat fine art papers so that you can print with your digital printer. You coat them yourself.
KK:
Yes.
MB:
So tell us a little bit about that, because I didn't even I didn't know you could do that.
KK:
The whole reasoning for that was when, as I said, I didn't like digital because of the papers. Mostly that was the main issue. And so the papers can get so easily scratched, so easily dinged or, or they flake off and I didn't like that. And I thought, I've got to do something else, and I have no idea how I found this company. But it's a company called InkAid, and they had a way to - it was a emulsion. I had done liquid light before. So it's kind of similar to that, except you don't need to be in the dark to coat these papers because they're going through a digital printer. But I found this, it comes in small jugs or big jugs, and I started coating watercolor paper and testing it out and I liked it. And I found that actually it prints very nicely. It's also hearty. It it is much harder than any of the digital papers I found out there. And so I started working with that and doing that a lot more. So a of the pictures were done on that.
MB:
Do you then coated them afterwards as well - to, like, seal it?
KK:
I wax them. So I use Dorland's wax. So I wax it and then I'll buff it.
MB:
Like encaustic?
KK:
No - it's like a butter. It’s white and I just will rub it onto my print. I do spray the prints first, you know, with a spray to just make sure that the ink is set in. Because once I start rubbing it can rub through. And you want them dry too. So I will work on that. I will coat the papers, print on them. The coating is two coats you have to coat once, let it dry, coat again. Let it dry. Then I have to put it through a press and flatten it because the paper comes out wrinkled, and so I will then flatten it, put it through the printer and then once it's dry I will spray it and then I will wax it.
I had a problem though. One of the prints I just brought here, I kept in the car and the sun was hitting it and it did it a little something to the wax. And because they were in plastic, the plastic stuck to it. I don't have Dorland’s wax with me. I didn't bring it, so I guess I could go to the art store and get some and fix it. That the thing I like about these is that they can be fixed pretty easily. I mean, again, these prints are so much heatier. And of course the inks that I'm using are archival and the longevity of them is probably even more than, than silver gelatin prints these days - about the same or maybe more. And so yes, they're coated with the wax at the end. The wax also gives a little bit of a depth to it. It just makes it a little bit nicer. Instead of varnish, which I don't like to use as much.
MB:
It's not slick, it's not glossy. Right?
KK:
It could be. So I use a paper towel and I'll just rub it and rub, rub, rub. My arm muscles after a while will get really sore because if I'm doing a whole slew of them, I'm rubbing pretty hard on the prints
There's a photographer in Nashville that is known for actually printing and throwing his prints on the floor in front of people and just stepping on them and saying, See, this is the way it’s supposed to be. But he's not printing like I am. So my prints would be better and last longer than his. He liked adding that grit to them.
MB:
So here are a couple examples of encaustic, right?
KK:
So these are a similar thing of using InkAid. It's a great company. I've worked with this guy using his materials probably, oh, 20 years or more now, and he's located in North Carolina and he has not just the InkAid that’s for coating paper, but also what I can do is a transfer. So it's a transfer process. You can transfer onto, for instance, cloth silk if you want. If anyone does any kind of silk printing, it's another way of doing silk printing.
MB:
You print onto another medium and then?
KK:
You print onto a clear film. It's just a clear film and you print on that, in reverse, because you’re then going to put it down and that ink is then transferred onto cloth - or I'm transferring onto wood panels. So I do cradle wood panels that I'm then transferring on. Sometimes the wood panels have some painting up above, that I added before I put the image down. Sometimes I'll paint once the image is down, and then I will do encaustic on top of that.
MB:
And then, just briefly, about the Polaroids. These are SX70?
So these are a similar thing of using InkAid. It's a great company. I've worked with this guy using his materials probably, oh, 20 years or more now, and he's located in North Carolina and he has not just the InkAid that’s for coating paper, but also what I can do is a transfer. So it's a transfer process. You can transfer onto, for instance, cloth silk if you want. If anyone does any kind of silk printing, it's another way of doing silk printing.
MB:
You print onto another medium and then?
KK:
You print onto a clear film. It's just a clear film and you print on that, in reverse, because you’re then going to put it down and that ink is then transferred onto cloth - or I'm transferring onto wood panels. So I do cradle wood panels that I'm then transferring on. Sometimes the wood panels have some painting up above, that I added before I put the image down. Sometimes I'll paint once the image is down, and then I will do encaustic on top of that.
MB:
And then, just briefly, about the Polaroids. These are SX70?
KK:
That was at SX70. But I also did - again - a similar thing. All of this really - even the InkAid transfer process - I was already doing that with Polaroid film. So I had one of these machines that I could do 8x10 sheets, and you would have to put the watercolor paper into a bath of gelatin and hot water. Get that soaked for a while. Take it out, put down the film and put a piece of glass over it, blow dry it for a minute. You didn't want it sticking to the glass because it could do that if you dried it too much.
MB:
Do you all know what we're talking about? With Polaroid, you would pull it out of the camera, it would go through rollers that would spread the chemistry that was in a little pouch onto the receptor paper that was white glossy paper. Well, for Polaroid transfers, you pulled it out of the camera, you immediately peeled it apart and threw away that glossy paper. And it was an alternative paper that you rolled this film down on and it would transfer onto that paper.
KK:
Yeah. And I did both eight by ten and four by fives. And I was doing it with slides.
MB:
Printing slides onto the Polaroid.
KK:
Yes. And then the SX70 was fun to do because that was you could manipulate it. You would shoot it, It would pop out and you would start seeing the image appearing. While that was happening, you could start and, you know, you could take a toothpick or keys or a pencil or something and just kind of go slowly and give it that painterly look.
MB:
Are these old images? Are you doing it with any of the new instant films?
KK:
SX70, really, even the new kind, it just doesn’t work. And it also costs a lot of money. It's not like it used to be. And people that don't know about it would think that it was done digitally. When I was doing this digital was not available.
MB:
And your original was only this big.
KK:
Yeah. So then what I would do is I would scan it and print it bigger.
That was at SX70. But I also did - again - a similar thing. All of this really - even the InkAid transfer process - I was already doing that with Polaroid film. So I had one of these machines that I could do 8x10 sheets, and you would have to put the watercolor paper into a bath of gelatin and hot water. Get that soaked for a while. Take it out, put down the film and put a piece of glass over it, blow dry it for a minute. You didn't want it sticking to the glass because it could do that if you dried it too much.
MB:
Do you all know what we're talking about? With Polaroid, you would pull it out of the camera, it would go through rollers that would spread the chemistry that was in a little pouch onto the receptor paper that was white glossy paper. Well, for Polaroid transfers, you pulled it out of the camera, you immediately peeled it apart and threw away that glossy paper. And it was an alternative paper that you rolled this film down on and it would transfer onto that paper.
KK:
Yeah. And I did both eight by ten and four by fives. And I was doing it with slides.
MB:
Printing slides onto the Polaroid.
KK:
Yes. And then the SX70 was fun to do because that was you could manipulate it. You would shoot it, It would pop out and you would start seeing the image appearing. While that was happening, you could start and, you know, you could take a toothpick or keys or a pencil or something and just kind of go slowly and give it that painterly look.
MB:
Are these old images? Are you doing it with any of the new instant films?
KK:
SX70, really, even the new kind, it just doesn’t work. And it also costs a lot of money. It's not like it used to be. And people that don't know about it would think that it was done digitally. When I was doing this digital was not available.
MB:
And your original was only this big.
KK:
Yeah. So then what I would do is I would scan it and print it bigger.
MB:
This image is in here just because you also have a design background, right? So you've told me about working with a client to do this kind of stuff. So this is other stuff that you do in the course of your day? Do you consider yourself more the fine art photographer person or are you all these things?
KK:
I think it all blends together. I mean, how can you really separate it? These were keys that Chance Martin - a guy that used to work with Johnny Cash - collected over the years, he would steal these keys. And actually one of the keys was a very well known key and a very expensive key, it’s the one right up on top, that the one right above the blue “Hide-a-Key”. That he took from a hotel in Germany. And they were getting on the bus and all of a sudden the police came up onto the bus, and Johnny Cash kind of stands up and says, “Well, yeah, what can I do for you?” And they said, “Well, the key is missing. Somebody took the key.” And the hotel did not want to lose their keys. And so Johnny turns immediately to Chance and says, “Chance, you did it again, didn't you?” And he took out his wad of money and said, “Well, how much?” And I think he gave them maybe $200 or something like that. And of course the police left and the bus started rolling on to the next stop. And Johnny just shook his head a Chance and said, you know, “that's going to cost you.” So he had a whole suitcase full of these keys and my client wanted to display the keys somehow.
So actually, this is on a big panel. And I did it on the film, transferred it onto the panel and then but did the wax over the top instead of a varnish, because the wax is just a nicer way to keep it safe.
MB:
So all of this stuff about process, I think you do a really good job - you sell prints, but you also have other outlets for your work. You make handmade books, right?
This image is in here just because you also have a design background, right? So you've told me about working with a client to do this kind of stuff. So this is other stuff that you do in the course of your day? Do you consider yourself more the fine art photographer person or are you all these things?
KK:
I think it all blends together. I mean, how can you really separate it? These were keys that Chance Martin - a guy that used to work with Johnny Cash - collected over the years, he would steal these keys. And actually one of the keys was a very well known key and a very expensive key, it’s the one right up on top, that the one right above the blue “Hide-a-Key”. That he took from a hotel in Germany. And they were getting on the bus and all of a sudden the police came up onto the bus, and Johnny Cash kind of stands up and says, “Well, yeah, what can I do for you?” And they said, “Well, the key is missing. Somebody took the key.” And the hotel did not want to lose their keys. And so Johnny turns immediately to Chance and says, “Chance, you did it again, didn't you?” And he took out his wad of money and said, “Well, how much?” And I think he gave them maybe $200 or something like that. And of course the police left and the bus started rolling on to the next stop. And Johnny just shook his head a Chance and said, you know, “that's going to cost you.” So he had a whole suitcase full of these keys and my client wanted to display the keys somehow.
So actually, this is on a big panel. And I did it on the film, transferred it onto the panel and then but did the wax over the top instead of a varnish, because the wax is just a nicer way to keep it safe.
MB:
So all of this stuff about process, I think you do a really good job - you sell prints, but you also have other outlets for your work. You make handmade books, right?
KK:
I used to make handmade books. Again, times have changed and it costs too much money to make these. It's a lot of work. I used handmade papers and linen, the ribbons, everything, beads sometimes… I did some work for a girl that was doing wedding photography in, I think in Saint Louis. And so she would order my books and it started getting to be too much of a thing because she wanted specific colors and it was costing a lot more money. And when digital and all the self-publishing and all that came along, people switched to that.
But these books and a lot of my clients still have sitting on their coffee tables. They’re books of a day, of a portrait session with a family or with a child, and it just was nice to use different papers. And a lot of them I got from New York Central Art Supply, which unfortunately does not exist anymore. I think they closed their doors recently.
MB:
And then you have this book. This book is available here. This is poetry - writing and images. So, are you more a writer than a photographer, or…?
KK:
I was a writer when I was a child and everyone said, “Oh, you need to become a writer.” Or they actually said a journalist. I don't know why they wanted me to be a journalist, but that's what people said. And I thought, I'm not the type that wants to be a journalist. But I always wrote. I wanted to always photographed. My uncle was an architect, but also a photographer and pretty well known in Australia. But my father wouldn't give me a camera, and it wasn't until after high school I went to Germany, he gave me his old Minolta, but didn't tell me how to use it. I had no idea. I just shot pictures and most of them are blurry. But I did always write.
MB:
So that's this book that's here, and it's this really. I love this. There are a lot of images here that we haven't seen today.
KK:
This was this was COVID related in a way, because, you know, COVID came around and I felt stuck at home. And I just got back into writing and so I started writing and, yeah, it just happened.
MB:
And now tell us about this - Epona?
KK:
So this is a new thing I wanted to do. I wanted to do another book, a second book. But then I thought, again, books are costing a lot of money too. Self-publishing also has gone up. It's not like it used to be. Those books still cost quite a bit because I did self-publish them. I used a lot of my savings to get those books done. And I thought, I can't do that again. I don't have the money right now to do that. But a company named Blurb was also doing magazines, and I thought, well, I might start a magazine. So along with everything else that I'm trying to do, along with, you know, photography, writing, my design work, making candles or trying to make candles, I thought, I'm going to start a magazine. So I started a magazine. And I just wanted to do a small version of it. So this is just a small one instead of a book. It's just a similar thing - pictures and my poetry. But my future thoughts of it are that I would like it to be a magazine and I would like to even have other people, you know, sending in stuff. I have a friend who writes, at home in Franklin outside of Nashville, and she was thinking about trying to do a magazine, but she never got around to doing it. So I told her, I said, I'll do it. So I'm doing it.
MB:
I think what's cool about this is - we were just talking the other day about Raymond Meeks. Raymond does these things he calls broadsides, and they're handmade editions between three and seven, maybe even some of them are this big. Some of them are very small. Hand bound, maybe five pages, six pages, something like that, with photographs. Some of the photographs are on the page itself. Some of the photographs are pasted in or tipped in. Handwritten in pencil, pieces of poetry or stuff like that. So they're they're very unique objects, but it's a way to not have to do a book that has 50 pictures in it. Right? The project can be smaller. It can be really kind of targeted and have a theme. And then to hand make them you don't have to make dozens of them, you’re just making a few of them. And your magazine feels like a hybrid of that because, I mean, look how thin this is. You don't have to do a magazine that’s 150 pages.
KK:
I plan to add on to it. I did have a few of these little accordion books here. I don't know if they're all gone, but I did do accordion books where I did do something kind of similar. I did print on it, but it was all again, kind of my watercolor paper that I then did the emulsion on, printed on that, and then some of them I would write in, or do certain things. I like books. I think that it's a great way to, to show your work, and I think people like books too.
MB:
And they can afford books. I mean, more than they can afford prints an awful lot of the time. I think you've got a really nice kind of variety of ways to get work out there. My stuff just sits on my computer most of the time or goes to Instagram and this is a nice way to have something tangible that comes from it. The same with your cards you're doing handmade cards and it's a way to to get your images out there and have them be affordable and accessible.
KK:
And most people seem to buy them to frame.
MB:
Inexpensive print, right?
KK:
Yeah. Well they're printed with archival inks. They last a long time too.
MB:
We're going to go quickly because we're kind of running a little long…
KK:
It's me. I could keep talking.
MB:
So Andy Romanoff, who was here last time, this friend of ours from L.A., Andy is making movies, making little movies. And there was a good reaction to that last time. You make movies too. So your have you done a lot of movies? I know these two.
KK:
I have short films, short documentaries.
MB:
So how did you get into that? How where did that come from?
KK:
Oh, gosh - Disney, a long time.
There was a movie a long time ago, I remember, that had three kids that found an old movie camera and decided they would start making movies. And I remember that. And I always wanted to do that. I always wanted to be a filmmaker. And there again, I never had the education. I just educated myself. Finally I said, That's it, I'm going to do it.
MB:
And so that's digital cameras. So it is accessible now, right? You can use the same camera that you use for stills.
KK:
Yes, but I want a new one for it, too.
MB:
Really?
KK:
Yeah, but it just costs too much.
MB:
I know what you mean.
KK:
The Canon R, right? Their supposed to be really good.
MB:
So there’s just a little teaser for a longer film that's on your website, right?
KK:
Yes, that’s right.
MB:
But I think we want to end with this film here.
KK:
That was the very first thing I did.
I used to make handmade books. Again, times have changed and it costs too much money to make these. It's a lot of work. I used handmade papers and linen, the ribbons, everything, beads sometimes… I did some work for a girl that was doing wedding photography in, I think in Saint Louis. And so she would order my books and it started getting to be too much of a thing because she wanted specific colors and it was costing a lot more money. And when digital and all the self-publishing and all that came along, people switched to that.
But these books and a lot of my clients still have sitting on their coffee tables. They’re books of a day, of a portrait session with a family or with a child, and it just was nice to use different papers. And a lot of them I got from New York Central Art Supply, which unfortunately does not exist anymore. I think they closed their doors recently.
MB:
And then you have this book. This book is available here. This is poetry - writing and images. So, are you more a writer than a photographer, or…?
KK:
I was a writer when I was a child and everyone said, “Oh, you need to become a writer.” Or they actually said a journalist. I don't know why they wanted me to be a journalist, but that's what people said. And I thought, I'm not the type that wants to be a journalist. But I always wrote. I wanted to always photographed. My uncle was an architect, but also a photographer and pretty well known in Australia. But my father wouldn't give me a camera, and it wasn't until after high school I went to Germany, he gave me his old Minolta, but didn't tell me how to use it. I had no idea. I just shot pictures and most of them are blurry. But I did always write.
MB:
So that's this book that's here, and it's this really. I love this. There are a lot of images here that we haven't seen today.
KK:
This was this was COVID related in a way, because, you know, COVID came around and I felt stuck at home. And I just got back into writing and so I started writing and, yeah, it just happened.
MB:
And now tell us about this - Epona?
KK:
So this is a new thing I wanted to do. I wanted to do another book, a second book. But then I thought, again, books are costing a lot of money too. Self-publishing also has gone up. It's not like it used to be. Those books still cost quite a bit because I did self-publish them. I used a lot of my savings to get those books done. And I thought, I can't do that again. I don't have the money right now to do that. But a company named Blurb was also doing magazines, and I thought, well, I might start a magazine. So along with everything else that I'm trying to do, along with, you know, photography, writing, my design work, making candles or trying to make candles, I thought, I'm going to start a magazine. So I started a magazine. And I just wanted to do a small version of it. So this is just a small one instead of a book. It's just a similar thing - pictures and my poetry. But my future thoughts of it are that I would like it to be a magazine and I would like to even have other people, you know, sending in stuff. I have a friend who writes, at home in Franklin outside of Nashville, and she was thinking about trying to do a magazine, but she never got around to doing it. So I told her, I said, I'll do it. So I'm doing it.
MB:
I think what's cool about this is - we were just talking the other day about Raymond Meeks. Raymond does these things he calls broadsides, and they're handmade editions between three and seven, maybe even some of them are this big. Some of them are very small. Hand bound, maybe five pages, six pages, something like that, with photographs. Some of the photographs are on the page itself. Some of the photographs are pasted in or tipped in. Handwritten in pencil, pieces of poetry or stuff like that. So they're they're very unique objects, but it's a way to not have to do a book that has 50 pictures in it. Right? The project can be smaller. It can be really kind of targeted and have a theme. And then to hand make them you don't have to make dozens of them, you’re just making a few of them. And your magazine feels like a hybrid of that because, I mean, look how thin this is. You don't have to do a magazine that’s 150 pages.
KK:
I plan to add on to it. I did have a few of these little accordion books here. I don't know if they're all gone, but I did do accordion books where I did do something kind of similar. I did print on it, but it was all again, kind of my watercolor paper that I then did the emulsion on, printed on that, and then some of them I would write in, or do certain things. I like books. I think that it's a great way to, to show your work, and I think people like books too.
MB:
And they can afford books. I mean, more than they can afford prints an awful lot of the time. I think you've got a really nice kind of variety of ways to get work out there. My stuff just sits on my computer most of the time or goes to Instagram and this is a nice way to have something tangible that comes from it. The same with your cards you're doing handmade cards and it's a way to to get your images out there and have them be affordable and accessible.
KK:
And most people seem to buy them to frame.
MB:
Inexpensive print, right?
KK:
Yeah. Well they're printed with archival inks. They last a long time too.
MB:
We're going to go quickly because we're kind of running a little long…
KK:
It's me. I could keep talking.
MB:
So Andy Romanoff, who was here last time, this friend of ours from L.A., Andy is making movies, making little movies. And there was a good reaction to that last time. You make movies too. So your have you done a lot of movies? I know these two.
KK:
I have short films, short documentaries.
MB:
So how did you get into that? How where did that come from?
KK:
Oh, gosh - Disney, a long time.
There was a movie a long time ago, I remember, that had three kids that found an old movie camera and decided they would start making movies. And I remember that. And I always wanted to do that. I always wanted to be a filmmaker. And there again, I never had the education. I just educated myself. Finally I said, That's it, I'm going to do it.
MB:
And so that's digital cameras. So it is accessible now, right? You can use the same camera that you use for stills.
KK:
Yes, but I want a new one for it, too.
MB:
Really?
KK:
Yeah, but it just costs too much.
MB:
I know what you mean.
KK:
The Canon R, right? Their supposed to be really good.
MB:
So there’s just a little teaser for a longer film that's on your website, right?
KK:
Yes, that’s right.
MB:
But I think we want to end with this film here.
KK:
That was the very first thing I did.
MB:
And there we are. Thank you, Kisa!
And there we are. Thank you, Kisa!