THE CONVERSATIONS |
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GABRIELLA MARKS
Sunday, March 17, 2024
Edition ONE Gallery
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Pilar Law, Edition ONE Gallery Owner and Curator, welcomes LEICAS & SCOTCH to the gallery for Mark Berndt's conversation with commercial/editorial photographer Gabriella Marks.
All images © Gabriella Marks | All Rights Reserved Images may not be reproduced without written permission from the photographer.
Sunday, March 17, 2024
Edition ONE Gallery
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Pilar Law, Edition ONE Gallery Owner and Curator, welcomes LEICAS & SCOTCH to the gallery for Mark Berndt's conversation with commercial/editorial photographer Gabriella Marks.
All images © Gabriella Marks | All Rights Reserved Images may not be reproduced without written permission from the photographer.
MB:
Welcome, everybody. With another good turnout on a snowy day. All right. So I'm going to read Gabriella's bio to start us off, and then we're going to get into it.
Santa Fe photographer Gabriella Marks landed in New Mexico nearly 2 decades ago on intuition, but knows why she stays: the high desert light, lenticular clouds, the humbling experience growing plants in the dry clay soil and ancient pueblo pottery shards in the garden, and perhaps with most resonance: living in a community with a deep legacy that to this day values the creation and curation of art.
Gabriella’s work focuses primarily on editorial portraiture and food, and has been featured on the covers and within countless regional and national publications, as well as in the permanent collection of the New Mexico History Museum.
Gabriella serves as Chair of the National Board of Directors of ASMP - American Society of Media Photographers.
We're going to touch on that a little bit later because I think that's really important. Okay. So do you want to say anything before we dive in and I grill you?
GM
No, no.
Welcome, everybody. With another good turnout on a snowy day. All right. So I'm going to read Gabriella's bio to start us off, and then we're going to get into it.
Santa Fe photographer Gabriella Marks landed in New Mexico nearly 2 decades ago on intuition, but knows why she stays: the high desert light, lenticular clouds, the humbling experience growing plants in the dry clay soil and ancient pueblo pottery shards in the garden, and perhaps with most resonance: living in a community with a deep legacy that to this day values the creation and curation of art.
Gabriella’s work focuses primarily on editorial portraiture and food, and has been featured on the covers and within countless regional and national publications, as well as in the permanent collection of the New Mexico History Museum.
Gabriella serves as Chair of the National Board of Directors of ASMP - American Society of Media Photographers.
We're going to touch on that a little bit later because I think that's really important. Okay. So do you want to say anything before we dive in and I grill you?
GM
No, no.
MB:
All right, well here we go. So, first thing is, I always wonder how people get started in photography. And when we were first talking about this, you mentioned that today was a kind of a significant day in your photography career.
GM
Yeah. It is. Because in 2006, March 17th was my last day of full employment.
MB:
And now you're unemployed as a photographer?
GM
Now I am unemployed and working. But yeah, that was a big moment, taking the leap, having confidence in yourself, being willing to tolerate that risk and see what happens. But I think without taking that leap, you know, you're never going to really put the work in to your own work.
MB:
And so what brought you to photography? I mean, you had been doing it beforehand and then decided to go into it full time?
GM
Well, I had always, I mean ever since I was a kid, I was just a compulsive picture taker, as I think a lot of people are. And now, especially with iPhones. And when I was growing up, I lucked into a really nice Nikon for my 16th birthday. And then just started shooting, and had a nice lens. And the combo of those two things, being able to produce the kind of images that I saw in magazines was absolutely addictive and incredible.
MB:
What was a nice lens?
GM
You know, I wouldn't consider it nice now, 'cause it was a slow zoom, but it was probably like a like a kit, like 35 to 100 or something like that. Probably like a 4.5-5.6 zoom.
MB:
Days when they started introducing zooms as kit lenses rather than 50 millimeter lenses.
GM
Yeah, maybe. But I mean, this was the Nikon 2020. It was, yeah, 35 mil from way back in the day.
MB:
We're going to take a look at some of your early work while we talk so images just will rotate on the screen here. It looks like, in looking through some of these - I think these are in kind of chronological order - it looks like you were interested in portraiture from the very beginning.
GM:
I was, Yeah.
EARLY WORK:
All right, well here we go. So, first thing is, I always wonder how people get started in photography. And when we were first talking about this, you mentioned that today was a kind of a significant day in your photography career.
GM
Yeah. It is. Because in 2006, March 17th was my last day of full employment.
MB:
And now you're unemployed as a photographer?
GM
Now I am unemployed and working. But yeah, that was a big moment, taking the leap, having confidence in yourself, being willing to tolerate that risk and see what happens. But I think without taking that leap, you know, you're never going to really put the work in to your own work.
MB:
And so what brought you to photography? I mean, you had been doing it beforehand and then decided to go into it full time?
GM
Well, I had always, I mean ever since I was a kid, I was just a compulsive picture taker, as I think a lot of people are. And now, especially with iPhones. And when I was growing up, I lucked into a really nice Nikon for my 16th birthday. And then just started shooting, and had a nice lens. And the combo of those two things, being able to produce the kind of images that I saw in magazines was absolutely addictive and incredible.
MB:
What was a nice lens?
GM
You know, I wouldn't consider it nice now, 'cause it was a slow zoom, but it was probably like a like a kit, like 35 to 100 or something like that. Probably like a 4.5-5.6 zoom.
MB:
Days when they started introducing zooms as kit lenses rather than 50 millimeter lenses.
GM
Yeah, maybe. But I mean, this was the Nikon 2020. It was, yeah, 35 mil from way back in the day.
MB:
We're going to take a look at some of your early work while we talk so images just will rotate on the screen here. It looks like, in looking through some of these - I think these are in kind of chronological order - it looks like you were interested in portraiture from the very beginning.
GM:
I was, Yeah.
EARLY WORK:
MB:
A lot of people are, like, I can't engage with people. I don't want to do that. I'm going to shoot something else.
GM:
Well, cameras were a way to be comfortable around people because I felt very socially awkward in social settings. So if I was there with something to do, which in most cases was taking pictures, it provided me sort of a project, a focus. It gave me something to do with my hands and my face when I wasn't talking. So it sort of became a way to be social or to, you know, sort of be in social spaces. This work - a lot of this was when I was a college radio DJ for probably about 20 years, way past college in Western Mass in Boston, and then San Francisco. And I was in a band and I was very absorbed in the sort of indie underground music scene. And I began shooting bands for zines. So I was publishing my own zine in college and the first assignment work I ever got was all just for zines. None of it was paid, but I was learning how to meet people, get their photograph in a way that sort of represented them. And bands were my in for that.
MB:
But also, if you were doing zines, your work was getting published right away. Out there for other people to see. It wasn't just a thing you were doing at home in your darkroom.
GM:
Yes. And that was before Facebook and all that stuff. So, I mean, it was like zines were such a big part of how music scenes were publicizing bands, publicizing releases, concerts, all that kind of thing.
MB:
So were you shooting film?
GM:
Yes. Yeah.
MB:
Okay. Did you have a favorite film? You shot black and white and color, it looks like.
GM:
Not so much a favorite film because I was far more interested in experimentation than the very specific reproduction of certain values that I knew I liked. What I loved doing was a lot of cross-processing at that time. So I just liked throwing things in, cross-processing, and seeing what happened. And I was shooting everything from like Ilford to Tri-X and Portra - neg, yeah. I didn't generally shoot transparencies unless I was going to cross-process.
MB:
So did you teach yourself, or did you have formal education?
GM:
Totally self-taught.
MB:
That's like out of the frying pan into the fire. When you're doing stuff that has to show up somewhere, it's like an assignment...
GM:
And when you're spending your own money on film and processing, and days in the color lab, because I did all of my own color printing for a long time - yeah. I kind of called it poor girl's art school. I moved back to the Bay Area just in time to build the web because we were going to change the world. I got massively overpaid and then laid off and with my severance for six months I did what I called Poor Girl's Art School and just shot.
MB:
That's the way to do it.
GM:
That was before my eventual last date of other employment, but there was a long time there, right, where I was just shooting and shooting.
MB:
I mean, you would have to have enough stuff going on for you to get to the point where you say I'm going to quit my day job and do this full time.
GM:
Well, there was also a combination of web work. I mean, my transition - I was able to sort of crutch a shift into photography with doing design and web work and other things like that as well.
MB:
So were you thinking that you would go on to be a portrait photographer? I mean, there's so many different kinds of photography. You could be a wedding photographer, you could do events, you could do sports. There's like a ton of different things.
GM:
I just wanted to shoot.
MB:
Really, just whatever?
GM:
I just wanted to shoot. I mean, I was never all that interested in sports. The first things I was shooting was horse shows, you know, when I was a kid. So that kind of thing. But I mean, I wanted to be a music photographer. But in the days when Lisa Law was shooting, not in these days. Back when there was that kind of access. I worked at a company called Wolfgang's Vault, so I worked with Jim Marshall and Baron Wolman and some of the really, you know, those icons of the sixties. I would love to have done that. But by the time I was shooting, that was not the way music photography was, and I was not interested in becoming a part of the industry. Actually some of this work is from film sets that I was on as well.
At a certain point, there's only so many times you can shoot someone playing a guitar. And I was going in with a medium format camera on a tripod doing double exposures. I mean, I was getting very arty with it, and enjoying that. But at a certain point there was the desire to sort of get beyond that, and editorial work - my first editorial assignments here, is some of my first paid work, right? That was the real learning - how to go out and shoot to someone else's creative spec.
MB:
Well that, that's kind of where I wanted to go next. You're a commercial photographer, right? Editorial and corporate? Would that be the best description of it? So how's that different than fine art? See, I come from a commercial background and I understand commercial work, but I don't understand fine art!
GM:
Yeah. And I will always differentiate. I do not consider myself a fine artist. I think fine artists are expressing their own vision and telling their own stories. And really, I am hired to produce images that tell my clients stories. And I love that collaboration. But I am not showing my inner self. I'm using the tools and the experience I have to tell the story that my clients want to tell.
MB:
But those things aren't mutually exclusive? You have a vision? You have a way of seeing what you see, and you bring that - you have to meld that in with the requirements of the job.
GM:
Right? And I would say in addition to those things, how you carry yourself on set, how you carry yourself with subjects, that was a big part of the learning process as well. And I think that is part of what might differentiate my work from someone else's too. The things that don't show up on the camera but are part of the experience of being photographed.
MB:
Right. So - studio or location for you? Do you have a preference?
GM:
Yeah. I love the control of the studio, but then I like taking some of those tools out and getting into environments. I mean, once you're in an environment, it's so time specific and weather specific and all sorts of things and I love those, but I want to control when I'm outside, right, and all those sorts of things so that I can maximize, you know. I feel like environmental is easier, though.
MB:
I do too, because in the studio you have to show up with everything that's going to be in a shot. I mean, stuff happens, but if you want props, if you want a background, if you want lighting to go a certain way, you have to think about all that stuff in advance. And then within that creative realm, you're limited to that stuff that you brought - that model, those props, that wardrobe you know, whatever it is. I love location stuff. For years I was a director and we built everything. You know, you perfect kitchens, you put together families made up of strangers...
GM:
If I could go back, I would be a set designer, which I think is incredible. Building sets is great.
MB:
But I got tired of that because there's so much spontaneity when you just go out in the world and feed off of it.
GM:
And spontaneity within the subject. When people come into the studio, there is a formalizing aspect of that and I have to help people relax more.
MB:
Do you work with models or do you work with "real people"?
GM
Both. Both.
[Hysterical laughter from the audience.]
MB:
I'm sorry. It's an industry term. "Real people". "Real people" are really wonderful people but often horrible models and actors. They aren't trained to do that stuff.
GM:
And that's part of what becomes so interesting. How do I communicate to somebody? You know, I'm just constantly telling people to breathe and relax and... and figuring out in directing someone who's not used to being directed, what they respond to best.
MB:
And usually you have to do that- you've known those people for 5 minutes.
GM:
Often. Yes.
MB:
So you have to figure them out and communicate with that person in the right way.
GM:
But I try to do a lot of that beforehand too. Yeah. I mean, I try to have a lot of dialogue back and forth in terms of, you know, this is what it's going to feel like. Give me words to describe how you want to present yourself, all those sorts of things. So I try to get them thinking a lot about that beforehand in a more relaxed and hopefully a little playful way.
MB:
So I don't know how editorial works. What about prep? Do you get prep time? Do you get to scout locations?
GM:
For editorial? Rarely.
MB:
So you show up and figure it out.
GM:
I am often driving around the state and showing up somewhere and trying to figure out what to do with it.
And the best part is when I'm sent out, say, at this time of year and, and the assignment is give me a farm. And right now what are farms? Right now farms are dirt and hoops and that's it. But publishing schedules are always like that. I'm always shooting for four or five months ahead. So it's knowing how to sort of anticipate what's going to happen.
MB:
You're illustrating an article. Do you get to see the article?
GM:
I don't always. I mean, it's funny, different assigning editors have different feels about that. Some will share a manuscript with me, some won't. Sometimes they'll give me the writer's name, in which case I'll reach out to the writer. But often we're working very different tracks. I mean, that's the thing. When I write and shoot at the same time, that's when I feel I get the best.
MB:
Do you get the chance to do that very often?
GM:
I do. But it's so much more work.
MB:
Oh yeah, because you have to change hats.
GM
Well, writing is way harder than shooting.
MB:
But you also have to engage in a whole different kind of conversation while you're there, to get information.
GM
I'm constantly talking to people when I'm shooting them. Sometimes, given the constraints, especially driving around the state and things like that, when I'm on the road for editorial, I'm often going to a place when a writer doesn't. The writer will conduct the interviews by phone and by email, maybe by Zoom. I'm on site and I get a much richer narrative. Even just hanging out and you know, I usually try to walk in without a camera bag. I just want to walk in, introduce myself, meet the person, and have a little conversation before we get into everything. There's so much...
MB:
So you're kind of scoping things out and putting them at ease?
GM:
I'm looking for details, I'm looking for frames, I'm looking at light and yeah, and I'm doing that all within like the first 5 minutes.
MB:
Do you get assignments that you know are going to be a single page, or a cover? And then do you also get assignments that are stories that are going to be a multi-image series where you have to build a story, and kind of illustrate what that article is all about?
GM:
I mean that's the goal. Yeah. There aren't always visuals to convey everything, especially if it's a sort of esoteric concept or something like that. One year for Indian Market, I worked with a potter doing everything. I was not allowed to go to the land where she gets her clay, but every other aspect of producing a final pot I covered. That was interesting. That took weeks, but I'm not super interested in step by step documentation. I'd rather catch fleeting moments of creative process or someone expressing themselves. Like whether they're barefoot or what's in the corner and all those sorts of things.
Painter's studios are fantastic for that. Some painters are just absolutely meticulous with placement and everything is just in its place, and in other places you walk in and there's paint absolutely everywhere and like sticky stuff on the floor and you have no idea how that beautiful canvas comes out of that chaos.
MB:
What else about working like this?
GM:
Well, I mean, one thing that's interesting is I'm often going into very personal spaces. You know, like someone's creative space, someone's studio or something like that - it's very intimate. But even going into someone's home, which I also do quite a bit, it's a fascinating sort of two hour relationship or three hour relationship that you can have with someone where you walk in. You meet a stranger. They welcome you into their home or their studio or their space. And 3 hours later, you're hugging and saying goodbye. But it's knowing how to go into someone's space and photograph them in a way that doesn't bring out their self-consciousness or make people awkward, you know? All that sort of thing. It's sort of a little dance.
MB:
For sure. So if you go in without a camera bag, how long are you in conversation as you're doing your location scout at that point?
GM:
I'm scouting. I'm taking the person in, I'm letting them take me in. It may be just 2 minutes or sometimes, if they want to sit and have coffee, it's 30, you know? But I try to let them sort of set the pace at first.
MB:
From a business standpoint, when you accept an assignment, do you have a time frame that you need to get in and out in so that it's profitable?
GM:
I would be a better business person if I did that (laughs).
I mean, I do to a certain extent. I try to figure what the time should be. But once you're on location, once you're on site, it is what it is. And if it's going really poorly, we'll just make it as quick as possible. And that happens. And then you're figuring out, okay, what can I do to fix this later? Or how can I?
MB:
So - you don't get to turn in "poorly", right?
GM:
Well, yeah. And if it's going amazingly or if I think things are really sort of blooming, you know, I will stay as long as I can. There is a magic that can happen and I don't think that that magic can conform to a watch. So if things are really flowing, they're flowing and I want to capture that.
MB:
I always was fascinated with Mary Ellen Mark and the way that she did assignments but maintained relationships with people for years after that. You know, I found with commercial work, I would go in and set up for an hour, shoot a guy for 5 minutes, not remember his name, and never see him again. Are you able to maintain relationships on some of these stories?
GM:
That's some of the beauty of this - and I don't say this in a derisive way, I say it positively, but a lot of the editorial work that someone working in Santa Fe does, I call it 'small business boosterism'. We are promoting local businesses and trying to make them look good, whether it's a restaurant or retail or anything like that. But I've been shooting here for almost 20 years now, and I know every chef in town. Right? And you know, some of these folks I've been shooting for almost 15 years through every restaurant they've been to, or farmers - you know, sometimes they change locations and things like that. So it's just that we are in each other's circles.
But it's really fun too. I mean, the thing is, I was thinking of it in terms of like "long exposure" - a different kind of long exposure - exposure over years rather than just the moment that the shutter is open. And thinking about, like, it is really fun! I actually just did a series of portraits of chefs that I've been shooting for a long time, so I got to go in and say, okay, let's just play. I mean, I've done the shot of you looking "chef-y", now show me you. Like, who are YOU - the person who cooks the food, you know, and really get the real person.
MB:
Really that is the challenge, whatever the time frame is of the shoot. You're trying to get something that's different. You're trying to get in, find a little niche in somewhere that's not the typical thing. I often run into people who have been practicing their smiles since first grade because they didn't like their Kindergarten picture. And then that's all you get.
GM:
And I don't actually care a lot about smiles. I want a face that looks inviting, but I think smiles are overrated.
MB:
Sometimes not so with art directors...
Ok, let me jump out here.
GM:
I have to say, it is so hard to see older work on the screen here because I would shoot things so differently now. But I think it's interesting - that is actually the first story I ever shot. It's interesting to see how the work shifts and changes over time, you know, from when I was doing like purely personal stuff and then - that's the first story I shot here in Santa Fe. Many, many, many, many, many, many years ago. And I would not shoot it like that now. And that couple is also divorced, which also happens all the time.
But one of the things that's so interesting is the difference in going from being someone who likes to photograph when traveling, or put books together for family and things like that, to transitioning into making a living. I think that I was able to do it slowly on my sort of time because I was, you know, doing other work as well. But that's something I don't think is taught in school.
MB:
I don't think the business part is taught in school. I was going to ask you about that a little bit, because it seems that most of the programs that are in schools here are all Fine Art. And they're not talking about how do you make a living or...
GM:
Or how do you explain licensing to the client? What is copyright? Who owns it? Why should you register it?
MB:
Well, just the whole concept that you can be a career photographer - have a family and own a house and have insurance and retire...
GM:
I mean, I don't know about half of those, but I've got a couple...
MB:
But everybody who's having fun with photography is not thinking about any of that stuff at all.
GM:
Right, right.
MB:
So when you get an assignment from a magazine, you're signing a contract? THEIR contract, right?
GM:
And editorial rates - they set the rates - I don't set rates for editorial.
MB:
And usage? Licensing and everything?
GM
Right. Yeah and it's interesting - it's always been muddy and it is continuing to be muddy as more photographers do both motion and stills, because motion doesn't have the same copyright that stills do. And companies are used to owning footage outright. And I don't generally give anything outright.
MB:
Do you do motion?
GM
I do some. I'm not great at it. There are people who are so good at it. I do interviews. I can do interviews and I can do some B-roll and things like that.
I am a still photographer, though.
MB:
I love that.
GM:
It's funny - Paris Is Burning - do you remember that? That was a movie that came out, I think mid-nineties, early nineties with the first sort of look at the transgender community in New York and, I can't remember her name, but that photographer [Santa Fe photographer Gabriella Marks landed in New Mexico nearly 2 decades ago on intuition, but knows why she stays: the high desert light, lenticular clouds, the humbling experience growing plants in the dry clay soil and ancient pueblo pottery shards in the garden, and perhaps with most resonance: living in a community with a deep legacy that to this day values the creation and curation of art.
Gabriella’s work focuses primarily on editorial portraiture and food, and has been featured on the covers and within countless regional and national publications, as well as in the permanent collection of the New Mexico History Museum.
Gabriella serves as Chair of the National Board of Directors of ASMP - American Society of Media Photographers.
] said that she switched to making movies because nobody was looking at photos anymore. I was just like, I don't know. I think a photo - I can look at a photo for a long time.
MB:
That's what they're for.
They are, because you concern yourself with a lot of stuff that's in a photo because it's not going to change. That's going to be at the newsstand and it's going to be in the doctor's office and wherever. That's the thing that people are going to look at. You want to make sure that all that is working to do whatever it is you want it to do, Right?
GM:
Yeah. And I just also like a perfect image of a moment. I believe in moments, and moments can convey so much about a full experience. But the moment is the thing that draws me.
MB:
I agree. We're going to take a detour about gear. I love that you're a little embarrassed by this photo of the contents of your bag. So what's in your bag? This is just always interesting because we're photographers and it all ends up being about gear at some point. So what's your kit? How do you work these days?
WHAT'S IN YOUR BAG?
A lot of people are, like, I can't engage with people. I don't want to do that. I'm going to shoot something else.
GM:
Well, cameras were a way to be comfortable around people because I felt very socially awkward in social settings. So if I was there with something to do, which in most cases was taking pictures, it provided me sort of a project, a focus. It gave me something to do with my hands and my face when I wasn't talking. So it sort of became a way to be social or to, you know, sort of be in social spaces. This work - a lot of this was when I was a college radio DJ for probably about 20 years, way past college in Western Mass in Boston, and then San Francisco. And I was in a band and I was very absorbed in the sort of indie underground music scene. And I began shooting bands for zines. So I was publishing my own zine in college and the first assignment work I ever got was all just for zines. None of it was paid, but I was learning how to meet people, get their photograph in a way that sort of represented them. And bands were my in for that.
MB:
But also, if you were doing zines, your work was getting published right away. Out there for other people to see. It wasn't just a thing you were doing at home in your darkroom.
GM:
Yes. And that was before Facebook and all that stuff. So, I mean, it was like zines were such a big part of how music scenes were publicizing bands, publicizing releases, concerts, all that kind of thing.
MB:
So were you shooting film?
GM:
Yes. Yeah.
MB:
Okay. Did you have a favorite film? You shot black and white and color, it looks like.
GM:
Not so much a favorite film because I was far more interested in experimentation than the very specific reproduction of certain values that I knew I liked. What I loved doing was a lot of cross-processing at that time. So I just liked throwing things in, cross-processing, and seeing what happened. And I was shooting everything from like Ilford to Tri-X and Portra - neg, yeah. I didn't generally shoot transparencies unless I was going to cross-process.
MB:
So did you teach yourself, or did you have formal education?
GM:
Totally self-taught.
MB:
That's like out of the frying pan into the fire. When you're doing stuff that has to show up somewhere, it's like an assignment...
GM:
And when you're spending your own money on film and processing, and days in the color lab, because I did all of my own color printing for a long time - yeah. I kind of called it poor girl's art school. I moved back to the Bay Area just in time to build the web because we were going to change the world. I got massively overpaid and then laid off and with my severance for six months I did what I called Poor Girl's Art School and just shot.
MB:
That's the way to do it.
GM:
That was before my eventual last date of other employment, but there was a long time there, right, where I was just shooting and shooting.
MB:
I mean, you would have to have enough stuff going on for you to get to the point where you say I'm going to quit my day job and do this full time.
GM:
Well, there was also a combination of web work. I mean, my transition - I was able to sort of crutch a shift into photography with doing design and web work and other things like that as well.
MB:
So were you thinking that you would go on to be a portrait photographer? I mean, there's so many different kinds of photography. You could be a wedding photographer, you could do events, you could do sports. There's like a ton of different things.
GM:
I just wanted to shoot.
MB:
Really, just whatever?
GM:
I just wanted to shoot. I mean, I was never all that interested in sports. The first things I was shooting was horse shows, you know, when I was a kid. So that kind of thing. But I mean, I wanted to be a music photographer. But in the days when Lisa Law was shooting, not in these days. Back when there was that kind of access. I worked at a company called Wolfgang's Vault, so I worked with Jim Marshall and Baron Wolman and some of the really, you know, those icons of the sixties. I would love to have done that. But by the time I was shooting, that was not the way music photography was, and I was not interested in becoming a part of the industry. Actually some of this work is from film sets that I was on as well.
At a certain point, there's only so many times you can shoot someone playing a guitar. And I was going in with a medium format camera on a tripod doing double exposures. I mean, I was getting very arty with it, and enjoying that. But at a certain point there was the desire to sort of get beyond that, and editorial work - my first editorial assignments here, is some of my first paid work, right? That was the real learning - how to go out and shoot to someone else's creative spec.
MB:
Well that, that's kind of where I wanted to go next. You're a commercial photographer, right? Editorial and corporate? Would that be the best description of it? So how's that different than fine art? See, I come from a commercial background and I understand commercial work, but I don't understand fine art!
GM:
Yeah. And I will always differentiate. I do not consider myself a fine artist. I think fine artists are expressing their own vision and telling their own stories. And really, I am hired to produce images that tell my clients stories. And I love that collaboration. But I am not showing my inner self. I'm using the tools and the experience I have to tell the story that my clients want to tell.
MB:
But those things aren't mutually exclusive? You have a vision? You have a way of seeing what you see, and you bring that - you have to meld that in with the requirements of the job.
GM:
Right? And I would say in addition to those things, how you carry yourself on set, how you carry yourself with subjects, that was a big part of the learning process as well. And I think that is part of what might differentiate my work from someone else's too. The things that don't show up on the camera but are part of the experience of being photographed.
MB:
Right. So - studio or location for you? Do you have a preference?
GM:
Yeah. I love the control of the studio, but then I like taking some of those tools out and getting into environments. I mean, once you're in an environment, it's so time specific and weather specific and all sorts of things and I love those, but I want to control when I'm outside, right, and all those sorts of things so that I can maximize, you know. I feel like environmental is easier, though.
MB:
I do too, because in the studio you have to show up with everything that's going to be in a shot. I mean, stuff happens, but if you want props, if you want a background, if you want lighting to go a certain way, you have to think about all that stuff in advance. And then within that creative realm, you're limited to that stuff that you brought - that model, those props, that wardrobe you know, whatever it is. I love location stuff. For years I was a director and we built everything. You know, you perfect kitchens, you put together families made up of strangers...
GM:
If I could go back, I would be a set designer, which I think is incredible. Building sets is great.
MB:
But I got tired of that because there's so much spontaneity when you just go out in the world and feed off of it.
GM:
And spontaneity within the subject. When people come into the studio, there is a formalizing aspect of that and I have to help people relax more.
MB:
Do you work with models or do you work with "real people"?
GM
Both. Both.
[Hysterical laughter from the audience.]
MB:
I'm sorry. It's an industry term. "Real people". "Real people" are really wonderful people but often horrible models and actors. They aren't trained to do that stuff.
GM:
And that's part of what becomes so interesting. How do I communicate to somebody? You know, I'm just constantly telling people to breathe and relax and... and figuring out in directing someone who's not used to being directed, what they respond to best.
MB:
And usually you have to do that- you've known those people for 5 minutes.
GM:
Often. Yes.
MB:
So you have to figure them out and communicate with that person in the right way.
GM:
But I try to do a lot of that beforehand too. Yeah. I mean, I try to have a lot of dialogue back and forth in terms of, you know, this is what it's going to feel like. Give me words to describe how you want to present yourself, all those sorts of things. So I try to get them thinking a lot about that beforehand in a more relaxed and hopefully a little playful way.
MB:
So I don't know how editorial works. What about prep? Do you get prep time? Do you get to scout locations?
GM:
For editorial? Rarely.
MB:
So you show up and figure it out.
GM:
I am often driving around the state and showing up somewhere and trying to figure out what to do with it.
And the best part is when I'm sent out, say, at this time of year and, and the assignment is give me a farm. And right now what are farms? Right now farms are dirt and hoops and that's it. But publishing schedules are always like that. I'm always shooting for four or five months ahead. So it's knowing how to sort of anticipate what's going to happen.
MB:
You're illustrating an article. Do you get to see the article?
GM:
I don't always. I mean, it's funny, different assigning editors have different feels about that. Some will share a manuscript with me, some won't. Sometimes they'll give me the writer's name, in which case I'll reach out to the writer. But often we're working very different tracks. I mean, that's the thing. When I write and shoot at the same time, that's when I feel I get the best.
MB:
Do you get the chance to do that very often?
GM:
I do. But it's so much more work.
MB:
Oh yeah, because you have to change hats.
GM
Well, writing is way harder than shooting.
MB:
But you also have to engage in a whole different kind of conversation while you're there, to get information.
GM
I'm constantly talking to people when I'm shooting them. Sometimes, given the constraints, especially driving around the state and things like that, when I'm on the road for editorial, I'm often going to a place when a writer doesn't. The writer will conduct the interviews by phone and by email, maybe by Zoom. I'm on site and I get a much richer narrative. Even just hanging out and you know, I usually try to walk in without a camera bag. I just want to walk in, introduce myself, meet the person, and have a little conversation before we get into everything. There's so much...
MB:
So you're kind of scoping things out and putting them at ease?
GM:
I'm looking for details, I'm looking for frames, I'm looking at light and yeah, and I'm doing that all within like the first 5 minutes.
MB:
Do you get assignments that you know are going to be a single page, or a cover? And then do you also get assignments that are stories that are going to be a multi-image series where you have to build a story, and kind of illustrate what that article is all about?
GM:
I mean that's the goal. Yeah. There aren't always visuals to convey everything, especially if it's a sort of esoteric concept or something like that. One year for Indian Market, I worked with a potter doing everything. I was not allowed to go to the land where she gets her clay, but every other aspect of producing a final pot I covered. That was interesting. That took weeks, but I'm not super interested in step by step documentation. I'd rather catch fleeting moments of creative process or someone expressing themselves. Like whether they're barefoot or what's in the corner and all those sorts of things.
Painter's studios are fantastic for that. Some painters are just absolutely meticulous with placement and everything is just in its place, and in other places you walk in and there's paint absolutely everywhere and like sticky stuff on the floor and you have no idea how that beautiful canvas comes out of that chaos.
MB:
What else about working like this?
GM:
Well, I mean, one thing that's interesting is I'm often going into very personal spaces. You know, like someone's creative space, someone's studio or something like that - it's very intimate. But even going into someone's home, which I also do quite a bit, it's a fascinating sort of two hour relationship or three hour relationship that you can have with someone where you walk in. You meet a stranger. They welcome you into their home or their studio or their space. And 3 hours later, you're hugging and saying goodbye. But it's knowing how to go into someone's space and photograph them in a way that doesn't bring out their self-consciousness or make people awkward, you know? All that sort of thing. It's sort of a little dance.
MB:
For sure. So if you go in without a camera bag, how long are you in conversation as you're doing your location scout at that point?
GM:
I'm scouting. I'm taking the person in, I'm letting them take me in. It may be just 2 minutes or sometimes, if they want to sit and have coffee, it's 30, you know? But I try to let them sort of set the pace at first.
MB:
From a business standpoint, when you accept an assignment, do you have a time frame that you need to get in and out in so that it's profitable?
GM:
I would be a better business person if I did that (laughs).
I mean, I do to a certain extent. I try to figure what the time should be. But once you're on location, once you're on site, it is what it is. And if it's going really poorly, we'll just make it as quick as possible. And that happens. And then you're figuring out, okay, what can I do to fix this later? Or how can I?
MB:
So - you don't get to turn in "poorly", right?
GM:
Well, yeah. And if it's going amazingly or if I think things are really sort of blooming, you know, I will stay as long as I can. There is a magic that can happen and I don't think that that magic can conform to a watch. So if things are really flowing, they're flowing and I want to capture that.
MB:
I always was fascinated with Mary Ellen Mark and the way that she did assignments but maintained relationships with people for years after that. You know, I found with commercial work, I would go in and set up for an hour, shoot a guy for 5 minutes, not remember his name, and never see him again. Are you able to maintain relationships on some of these stories?
GM:
That's some of the beauty of this - and I don't say this in a derisive way, I say it positively, but a lot of the editorial work that someone working in Santa Fe does, I call it 'small business boosterism'. We are promoting local businesses and trying to make them look good, whether it's a restaurant or retail or anything like that. But I've been shooting here for almost 20 years now, and I know every chef in town. Right? And you know, some of these folks I've been shooting for almost 15 years through every restaurant they've been to, or farmers - you know, sometimes they change locations and things like that. So it's just that we are in each other's circles.
But it's really fun too. I mean, the thing is, I was thinking of it in terms of like "long exposure" - a different kind of long exposure - exposure over years rather than just the moment that the shutter is open. And thinking about, like, it is really fun! I actually just did a series of portraits of chefs that I've been shooting for a long time, so I got to go in and say, okay, let's just play. I mean, I've done the shot of you looking "chef-y", now show me you. Like, who are YOU - the person who cooks the food, you know, and really get the real person.
MB:
Really that is the challenge, whatever the time frame is of the shoot. You're trying to get something that's different. You're trying to get in, find a little niche in somewhere that's not the typical thing. I often run into people who have been practicing their smiles since first grade because they didn't like their Kindergarten picture. And then that's all you get.
GM:
And I don't actually care a lot about smiles. I want a face that looks inviting, but I think smiles are overrated.
MB:
Sometimes not so with art directors...
Ok, let me jump out here.
GM:
I have to say, it is so hard to see older work on the screen here because I would shoot things so differently now. But I think it's interesting - that is actually the first story I ever shot. It's interesting to see how the work shifts and changes over time, you know, from when I was doing like purely personal stuff and then - that's the first story I shot here in Santa Fe. Many, many, many, many, many, many years ago. And I would not shoot it like that now. And that couple is also divorced, which also happens all the time.
But one of the things that's so interesting is the difference in going from being someone who likes to photograph when traveling, or put books together for family and things like that, to transitioning into making a living. I think that I was able to do it slowly on my sort of time because I was, you know, doing other work as well. But that's something I don't think is taught in school.
MB:
I don't think the business part is taught in school. I was going to ask you about that a little bit, because it seems that most of the programs that are in schools here are all Fine Art. And they're not talking about how do you make a living or...
GM:
Or how do you explain licensing to the client? What is copyright? Who owns it? Why should you register it?
MB:
Well, just the whole concept that you can be a career photographer - have a family and own a house and have insurance and retire...
GM:
I mean, I don't know about half of those, but I've got a couple...
MB:
But everybody who's having fun with photography is not thinking about any of that stuff at all.
GM:
Right, right.
MB:
So when you get an assignment from a magazine, you're signing a contract? THEIR contract, right?
GM:
And editorial rates - they set the rates - I don't set rates for editorial.
MB:
And usage? Licensing and everything?
GM
Right. Yeah and it's interesting - it's always been muddy and it is continuing to be muddy as more photographers do both motion and stills, because motion doesn't have the same copyright that stills do. And companies are used to owning footage outright. And I don't generally give anything outright.
MB:
Do you do motion?
GM
I do some. I'm not great at it. There are people who are so good at it. I do interviews. I can do interviews and I can do some B-roll and things like that.
I am a still photographer, though.
MB:
I love that.
GM:
It's funny - Paris Is Burning - do you remember that? That was a movie that came out, I think mid-nineties, early nineties with the first sort of look at the transgender community in New York and, I can't remember her name, but that photographer [Santa Fe photographer Gabriella Marks landed in New Mexico nearly 2 decades ago on intuition, but knows why she stays: the high desert light, lenticular clouds, the humbling experience growing plants in the dry clay soil and ancient pueblo pottery shards in the garden, and perhaps with most resonance: living in a community with a deep legacy that to this day values the creation and curation of art.
Gabriella’s work focuses primarily on editorial portraiture and food, and has been featured on the covers and within countless regional and national publications, as well as in the permanent collection of the New Mexico History Museum.
Gabriella serves as Chair of the National Board of Directors of ASMP - American Society of Media Photographers.
] said that she switched to making movies because nobody was looking at photos anymore. I was just like, I don't know. I think a photo - I can look at a photo for a long time.
MB:
That's what they're for.
They are, because you concern yourself with a lot of stuff that's in a photo because it's not going to change. That's going to be at the newsstand and it's going to be in the doctor's office and wherever. That's the thing that people are going to look at. You want to make sure that all that is working to do whatever it is you want it to do, Right?
GM:
Yeah. And I just also like a perfect image of a moment. I believe in moments, and moments can convey so much about a full experience. But the moment is the thing that draws me.
MB:
I agree. We're going to take a detour about gear. I love that you're a little embarrassed by this photo of the contents of your bag. So what's in your bag? This is just always interesting because we're photographers and it all ends up being about gear at some point. So what's your kit? How do you work these days?
WHAT'S IN YOUR BAG?
GM:
Well, this is what it was most recently. It switches. If I was shooting food, there would be a macro lens. There's no macro lens because I was just doing some portraits - and there's a lens missing because it just broke.
But you know, it's interesting, the more I shoot, the less techie I am. I have a couple of my go-to lenses. You always have chargers, always have to have different varieties of batteries and things to clean things with. And the little thing right in the center that's a little Osmo, which is like a little handheld gimbal that shoots 4K. And so when I do have to do behind the scenes footage or anything like that I use it.
MB:
That's the camera?
GM:
It's an amazing little thing. And you just walk around like that. There's a new version, that's the old version. There's a new version now.
But I'm a small person. I have small hands. I've never wanted a motor drive. I love that things are getting smaller and smaller. I carry all my own gear. I don't generally have an assistant. So I want something I can carry easily on my back that won't kill me. I won't shoot with two cameras on anymore. (Jane, you're insane that you still do that.) And I want to - I want to be able to walk the next day.
But I really don't think it's the gear. I think it's the photographer. That said, I love that Leica lens that you're shooting with.
MB:
So you're shooting with a Canon mirrorless?
GM:
Yeah. I still have a R4, but the R5 is so great. I'm really happy with the files on that. I did not like the electronic viewfinder. I waited a long time to go mirrorless because - I'm now used to it but I just found it really visually disruptive. I don't know if there's a tiny little macro flicker or something. I just don't like the way it looks.
MB:
See, to me the one key thing about the mirrorless cameras, not the rangefinder but the electronic viewfinder, is I can punch in to 100% and focus on an eyelash, and then pop back out and shoot. I can't do that with a DSLR and an optical viewfinder.
GM
And the other thing that I love? I can shoot, evaluate, reframe, shoot without ever taking it away from my face. So I'm no longer having to shoot, look down, back up trying to figure it out. I know exactly where I am. I know exactly the minute adjustment I want to make, and I love being able to see what I shot without moving the camera. That, to me, is huge. And shooting silently is cool.
MB:
You're also shooting probably fairly fast when you're working, right?
GM
It depends. If I'm shooting a portrait rather than action or something I want the person to sort of slow down and be present with me. And so I try to slow the whole process down a little bit too.
MB:
Are you a tripod person?
GM:
Only when I'm shooting product. And that includes product on people. You know, there are days when we have 100 clothing items to get through in a single day. Yeah, I'm on a tripod.
MB:
Tethered?
GM:
I will tether when I have to. The tethering I find - I'm not a big fan of it for a couple of reasons. One is everything slows down, the computer slows things down. I get wrapped up in cords all the time. But also I want the client to be engaged and in the moment and not looking at a screen. Because as soon as people start looking at screens... The same way, if I ever have an assistant, don't pull your phone out of your pocket. Everyone be in the room together.
And also, I didn't start shooting that way. I want to get the frame exactly where I want it before I start sharing with people. And often, honestly, when I'm shooting portraits, I don't want the person to see anything. Because that self-consciousness starts to come out. And I just want them to be free to be them. And they start looking - especially women - because we have certain expectations around the way women will look, will begin micromanaging all these little things. And like my version of photogenic doesn't have to do with beauty. It has to do with communication to the lens, communication of yourself - out. That to me is photogenic. Rather than, like, a picture perfect frame.
MB:
So we have two categories of other images that you brought - Food & Farms and Portraits. We're going to do Food & Farms first.
FOOD AND FARMS:
Well, this is what it was most recently. It switches. If I was shooting food, there would be a macro lens. There's no macro lens because I was just doing some portraits - and there's a lens missing because it just broke.
But you know, it's interesting, the more I shoot, the less techie I am. I have a couple of my go-to lenses. You always have chargers, always have to have different varieties of batteries and things to clean things with. And the little thing right in the center that's a little Osmo, which is like a little handheld gimbal that shoots 4K. And so when I do have to do behind the scenes footage or anything like that I use it.
MB:
That's the camera?
GM:
It's an amazing little thing. And you just walk around like that. There's a new version, that's the old version. There's a new version now.
But I'm a small person. I have small hands. I've never wanted a motor drive. I love that things are getting smaller and smaller. I carry all my own gear. I don't generally have an assistant. So I want something I can carry easily on my back that won't kill me. I won't shoot with two cameras on anymore. (Jane, you're insane that you still do that.) And I want to - I want to be able to walk the next day.
But I really don't think it's the gear. I think it's the photographer. That said, I love that Leica lens that you're shooting with.
MB:
So you're shooting with a Canon mirrorless?
GM:
Yeah. I still have a R4, but the R5 is so great. I'm really happy with the files on that. I did not like the electronic viewfinder. I waited a long time to go mirrorless because - I'm now used to it but I just found it really visually disruptive. I don't know if there's a tiny little macro flicker or something. I just don't like the way it looks.
MB:
See, to me the one key thing about the mirrorless cameras, not the rangefinder but the electronic viewfinder, is I can punch in to 100% and focus on an eyelash, and then pop back out and shoot. I can't do that with a DSLR and an optical viewfinder.
GM
And the other thing that I love? I can shoot, evaluate, reframe, shoot without ever taking it away from my face. So I'm no longer having to shoot, look down, back up trying to figure it out. I know exactly where I am. I know exactly the minute adjustment I want to make, and I love being able to see what I shot without moving the camera. That, to me, is huge. And shooting silently is cool.
MB:
You're also shooting probably fairly fast when you're working, right?
GM
It depends. If I'm shooting a portrait rather than action or something I want the person to sort of slow down and be present with me. And so I try to slow the whole process down a little bit too.
MB:
Are you a tripod person?
GM:
Only when I'm shooting product. And that includes product on people. You know, there are days when we have 100 clothing items to get through in a single day. Yeah, I'm on a tripod.
MB:
Tethered?
GM:
I will tether when I have to. The tethering I find - I'm not a big fan of it for a couple of reasons. One is everything slows down, the computer slows things down. I get wrapped up in cords all the time. But also I want the client to be engaged and in the moment and not looking at a screen. Because as soon as people start looking at screens... The same way, if I ever have an assistant, don't pull your phone out of your pocket. Everyone be in the room together.
And also, I didn't start shooting that way. I want to get the frame exactly where I want it before I start sharing with people. And often, honestly, when I'm shooting portraits, I don't want the person to see anything. Because that self-consciousness starts to come out. And I just want them to be free to be them. And they start looking - especially women - because we have certain expectations around the way women will look, will begin micromanaging all these little things. And like my version of photogenic doesn't have to do with beauty. It has to do with communication to the lens, communication of yourself - out. That to me is photogenic. Rather than, like, a picture perfect frame.
MB:
So we have two categories of other images that you brought - Food & Farms and Portraits. We're going to do Food & Farms first.
FOOD AND FARMS:
GM:
And that was my first cover. I was very proud of that. It wasn't intended to be a cover, but it just...
MB:
See, that's when you come back with something, and an art director looks at it and goes - 'we've got our cover!'
GM:
And it's actually, it's I mean, it's not a great shot. It's blown out. There's a little bit of motion blur to it. It's not super sharp. But again, it was a moment and it was the moment that they wanted, you know.
MB:
Well, I try to create imperfections in my work. In an age where everybody can perfect everything, I think it's more interesting to have some flaws and to have some stuff that makes it feel - that conveys more of a reality. You know, kind of validates that moment.
GM:
Yes. I'm not trying to make, uh, this is not forensics. I'm not trying to make evidence.
MB:
Well, it's not advertising work either where you're getting paid to make it perfect.
GM:
Right. And I'm not shooting product. I'm shooting real food. There's no styrofoam. I have put motor oil on meat before, I admit to that.
MB:
One of my favorite dinners, actually.
GM:
The thing that I'm enjoying most lately has been more opportunities to collaborate. I mean, I love the editorial work when I just pack food and clothes and camera gear into a car and I'm out for a week...
MB:
You get to do that? Like you can go for a week on an assignment?
GM:
When I have a series - a big series - or I will also, if I'm going to Las Cruces and I want to take advantage of everything there and on the way back, I may license stuff that I shoot, even if it's not an assignment. I want to maximize my time out. For sure. But that is completely independent. There's no boss. I'm not calling to check in with anyone. It's very individual driven. And I'm enjoying the balance between that and then more sort of studio/lifestyle collaborations, like where we're spending three weeks just planning out the mockups. Right? I mean, those are few and far between, and some of that's personal work, you know, developing relationships with stylists and creative directors so that I can produce more of the work that I'd like to move into.
MB:
So I had a good friend in Kansas City years ago was a food photographer. That was his specialty. How do you approach that differently? Food?
GM:
You know, I don't think I ever have approached it differently. It's interesting. I know there are people who do that. I mean, I love food. And I love the artistry or, you know, the mess on the plate. I mean, there's nothing better than shooting a dinner table after a big dinner party or something like that. I think I do think of food as portraits, though.
MB:
Really?
GM:
Like the idea of still life just sounds very static. And I'm looking for what, in a plate of food, what is it that I am drawn to first? What is :the character? What is the subject?
MB:
Do you light?
GM:
I do.
MB:
On location, you light?.
GM:
I light everything. I light almost everything. And the challenge has been learning how to make it not look lit. Because in the beginning, like that first assignment, that was some terrible light. But the more you do it, it's almost like a language, you know, learning the tools that I have, which are not the best tools, but they're the ones I know how to use. And I - I'll tie it to a tree or ask a stranger to hold something...
MB:
Are you working with an assistant?
GM:
Rarely.
MB:
So you're carrying everything, setting everything up, plugging everything and figuring it out?
GM:
Yeah. I kind of like that, though. I have to say, as soon as I have to manage somebody, it's already taking my attention away. So I have to really trust someone.
And some of my first work as well was back when the Santa Fe University of Art and Design was The College of Santa Fe. There was a graduate filmmakers intensive and I shot stills as a volunteer on five independent films. And that taught me a huge amount. First, that I don't want to do that for a living. But second, it was incredible to be around that very big team production. But at the end of the day, I realized that I want to shoot my own perspective or my own setups. I was not as interested in shooting someone else's story that way.
MB:
That's a whole different kind of photography.
GM:
Kind of like going back to evidence.
MB:
Yeah, it is very forensic.
GM
Yeah. Someone else's light and someone else's character.
MB:
And on a set, you're always trying to get them to let you in for 2 seconds, right?
GM:
Yes. And then shooting with a blimp? That sucked.
MB:
Blimps!
GM:
A blimp is what you use on set before they were mirrorless to make the camera silent, and they used to be a huge wooden box.
MB:
Big foam box that keeps the sound inside.
GM:
And I was actually shooting with scuba gear that did the same thing. But it's still - you're holding something that's ridiculous.
MB:
So in your bio, it says "... the humbling experience of growing plants in dry clay soil". Are you a farmer?
GM:
No. I'm always on the road. I'm always out. And I mean, I have such huge respect for farmers. I mean, farmers, ranchers. There is no Sunday when you're raising things. There is no day off. Animals have to eat every day. You've got to water, you've got to de-worm the plants and everything else. It takes a lot more presence than I have because I'm always running around. I would have to even just fix the soil where I am. Like, I can barely grow stuff. I keep some house succulents alive and you know, there's tomatoes...
MB:
So the farmers that you're photographing - you're in awe of what they do.
GM:
And they're also my neighbors. I mean, I'm living in Pojoaque, so I'm surrounded by farms and farmland and stuff like that. The more I learned about what they do, the more I realize I can't pull that off.
MB:
Is there a story you're telling about farming? It seems like these are all family farms, not corporate farms. It's little operations.
GM:
This was my entry into New Mexico, because I'm coming from California. You know, farmers markets in San Francisco are like half a mile long and you can get anything you want, and there are people driving from all over. And when I moved here, and you begin to realize how short the growing season is, and how dry it is and how hot... I mean, farmers here can deal with a 40 to 50 degree differential in a single day, right? In a single day. Going from frost all the way to 90 degrees. I'd never grown up around that. I'd never grown my own food. And when you realize just how hard it is to grow things... it was just an incredibly moving education. And that to me is sort of the foundation of my understanding of New Mexico.
MB:
Do your photographs make a difference? I mean, I don't know what the articles are about or what the particular publications are, but do you feel like your photographs are able to make a difference for the farmers, either exposure or - or showing people how hard it is to do their job?
GM:
I don't know. It is interesting. It's interesting because you don't get likes in a magazine, and at the end of the day I'm still a print photographer. I shoot stills for print.
MB:
There's a feeling that goes along with seeing your image in print - in a magazine.
GM:
Yeah. And people live with them. You know, they're on in the back of the toilet. They're on the coffee table. They're next to the mail that you didn't open, and you're flipping through while you're on the phone. I mean, magazines, print, is still a part of people's lives that way. And I'm actually more interested in being a part of someone's life that way than a friend scrolling through and hitting a like on something. My interaction on Instagram has gone almost exclusively just to, like, my chickens and whatever I'm doing on the day. And the chickens, by the way, are massively popular!
MB:
Yes. Cute as hell.
GM:
They are more chickens online than my professional work.
MB:
How do you deliver your assignments?
GM:
Everything is digital now. And out where I live, we can't get very fast internet, so I often drive into town to upload if I have a big upload, or ideally I'm mailing out hard drives. I mean that's, that's the best. It depends on how many files I'm delivering. And now every agency has its own platform and I'm uploading to all these. Every client has their own way of doing things, whether it's FTP or they're on some sort of content management system.
MB:
Do you process your images, or do they want RAW files, or both?
GM:
Some want RAW. Most just want jpegs.
MB:
So you get a chance to control what they look like? Do you do post-production?
GM:
I do. I do quite a bit of post. Yeah. I mean, I would like to do more but I don't really wanna spend all that much time in front of the computer. I'm happiest when I'm out doing things. And there's so much beautiful, sumptuous composite work and things like that, but I would rather get as much as I can in camera, and then fix things that I can't. But then, like, the New York Times, you're not allowed to touch a thing, right?
MB:
They have to be able to prove a RAW file.
GM:
And they're going to authenticate it. Like Leica has the new authentication feature.
Audience Question:
Do you allow the clients to process the files, to do anything with them without your say so?
GM:
Some - like Food Network - they're going to do it whether or not I want them to. That's just, like, their deal. But most of the time no one would touch an image. Most people don't have time. I mean, we're always on deadline. We are always like delivering and people don't have time.
MB:
Real journalism - you don't touch.
GM:
Real journalism - I don't touch. Well, I might add a tiny bit of density in highlights or something, but I'm not bringing in clouds, I'm not fixing hair, I'm not doing any of that. But recently a law firm, they wanted everything. They wanted all the RAW, they wanted everything. That's because, you know...
MB:
That's because "Marge" in their office is a Photoshop WIZ!
GM:
You know what it is? The industry is constantly shifting, and right now there is a big push for genre specific marketing. So I've worked with groups that only work with dentists, I work with groups that only work with lawyers, or a specific kind of law. They're national firms that are doing very specific marketing, and they want RAWs because they're basically managing media assets for their clients and they want the most so that they have latitude. I don't like giving RAWs. I prefer not to. Because again, I don't like to show my process all that much.
MB:
I always liken it to going into a five star restaurant, getting your entree delivered and then saying, I really need to come in and look at that garbage can in the kitchen because I'm sure you guys missed some good stuff in there. You know, the process is shoot a lot and and get to the point where you want to get to. That is the photographic process.
GM:
Well it's almost like in print, you know, back when photographers were printing their own work, even for magazines, what you do in the darkroom is as much as what you do in the camera.
Audience Question:
When you photograph food, does it activate your taste sense, or is it purely visual?
GM:
It totally activates my taste sense. Yeah.
I mean, I smell it before I see it, even. It's a very sort of sensual experience in that way. I smell it. I see it.
MB:
When you're shooting food, are you controlling what food is being shot? Is there a food stylist?
GM:
Rarely. I mean, for regional editorial food, chefs are plating and doing their thing. And sometimes that's the three-day-old parsley that you don't want in the shot. And sometimes it's exquisite, you know, sculpture.
Audience Question:
But you shoot it differently if you're smelling it and imagining the taste, than if you're shooting strictly as a visual.
GM:
Even though I don't usually eat it. But I'm still having the full sensory experience with it. I'm trying to provide an enticement? So I want to show, like, how pleasing would this be when it's set before a person? And I'll ask the chef what they think is the front of the plate, and then I'll figure out what I think is the front of the plate. And I'll probably shoot both. Especially on a round plate, you have a lot of options.
And often what they want to feature is actually not what makes it interesting.
I'm into real food.
MB:
Okay. So we're going to shift gears. I want to get everything in, so we're going to talk about portraiture. And again, you do studio work and you do environmental portraiture. When do you choose which one you're going to do? Or do you get to? I mean, will an art director ask you for something against a backdrop or something like that, or do you get to interpret what you're going to do your way?
PORTRAITS:
And that was my first cover. I was very proud of that. It wasn't intended to be a cover, but it just...
MB:
See, that's when you come back with something, and an art director looks at it and goes - 'we've got our cover!'
GM:
And it's actually, it's I mean, it's not a great shot. It's blown out. There's a little bit of motion blur to it. It's not super sharp. But again, it was a moment and it was the moment that they wanted, you know.
MB:
Well, I try to create imperfections in my work. In an age where everybody can perfect everything, I think it's more interesting to have some flaws and to have some stuff that makes it feel - that conveys more of a reality. You know, kind of validates that moment.
GM:
Yes. I'm not trying to make, uh, this is not forensics. I'm not trying to make evidence.
MB:
Well, it's not advertising work either where you're getting paid to make it perfect.
GM:
Right. And I'm not shooting product. I'm shooting real food. There's no styrofoam. I have put motor oil on meat before, I admit to that.
MB:
One of my favorite dinners, actually.
GM:
The thing that I'm enjoying most lately has been more opportunities to collaborate. I mean, I love the editorial work when I just pack food and clothes and camera gear into a car and I'm out for a week...
MB:
You get to do that? Like you can go for a week on an assignment?
GM:
When I have a series - a big series - or I will also, if I'm going to Las Cruces and I want to take advantage of everything there and on the way back, I may license stuff that I shoot, even if it's not an assignment. I want to maximize my time out. For sure. But that is completely independent. There's no boss. I'm not calling to check in with anyone. It's very individual driven. And I'm enjoying the balance between that and then more sort of studio/lifestyle collaborations, like where we're spending three weeks just planning out the mockups. Right? I mean, those are few and far between, and some of that's personal work, you know, developing relationships with stylists and creative directors so that I can produce more of the work that I'd like to move into.
MB:
So I had a good friend in Kansas City years ago was a food photographer. That was his specialty. How do you approach that differently? Food?
GM:
You know, I don't think I ever have approached it differently. It's interesting. I know there are people who do that. I mean, I love food. And I love the artistry or, you know, the mess on the plate. I mean, there's nothing better than shooting a dinner table after a big dinner party or something like that. I think I do think of food as portraits, though.
MB:
Really?
GM:
Like the idea of still life just sounds very static. And I'm looking for what, in a plate of food, what is it that I am drawn to first? What is :the character? What is the subject?
MB:
Do you light?
GM:
I do.
MB:
On location, you light?.
GM:
I light everything. I light almost everything. And the challenge has been learning how to make it not look lit. Because in the beginning, like that first assignment, that was some terrible light. But the more you do it, it's almost like a language, you know, learning the tools that I have, which are not the best tools, but they're the ones I know how to use. And I - I'll tie it to a tree or ask a stranger to hold something...
MB:
Are you working with an assistant?
GM:
Rarely.
MB:
So you're carrying everything, setting everything up, plugging everything and figuring it out?
GM:
Yeah. I kind of like that, though. I have to say, as soon as I have to manage somebody, it's already taking my attention away. So I have to really trust someone.
And some of my first work as well was back when the Santa Fe University of Art and Design was The College of Santa Fe. There was a graduate filmmakers intensive and I shot stills as a volunteer on five independent films. And that taught me a huge amount. First, that I don't want to do that for a living. But second, it was incredible to be around that very big team production. But at the end of the day, I realized that I want to shoot my own perspective or my own setups. I was not as interested in shooting someone else's story that way.
MB:
That's a whole different kind of photography.
GM:
Kind of like going back to evidence.
MB:
Yeah, it is very forensic.
GM
Yeah. Someone else's light and someone else's character.
MB:
And on a set, you're always trying to get them to let you in for 2 seconds, right?
GM:
Yes. And then shooting with a blimp? That sucked.
MB:
Blimps!
GM:
A blimp is what you use on set before they were mirrorless to make the camera silent, and they used to be a huge wooden box.
MB:
Big foam box that keeps the sound inside.
GM:
And I was actually shooting with scuba gear that did the same thing. But it's still - you're holding something that's ridiculous.
MB:
So in your bio, it says "... the humbling experience of growing plants in dry clay soil". Are you a farmer?
GM:
No. I'm always on the road. I'm always out. And I mean, I have such huge respect for farmers. I mean, farmers, ranchers. There is no Sunday when you're raising things. There is no day off. Animals have to eat every day. You've got to water, you've got to de-worm the plants and everything else. It takes a lot more presence than I have because I'm always running around. I would have to even just fix the soil where I am. Like, I can barely grow stuff. I keep some house succulents alive and you know, there's tomatoes...
MB:
So the farmers that you're photographing - you're in awe of what they do.
GM:
And they're also my neighbors. I mean, I'm living in Pojoaque, so I'm surrounded by farms and farmland and stuff like that. The more I learned about what they do, the more I realize I can't pull that off.
MB:
Is there a story you're telling about farming? It seems like these are all family farms, not corporate farms. It's little operations.
GM:
This was my entry into New Mexico, because I'm coming from California. You know, farmers markets in San Francisco are like half a mile long and you can get anything you want, and there are people driving from all over. And when I moved here, and you begin to realize how short the growing season is, and how dry it is and how hot... I mean, farmers here can deal with a 40 to 50 degree differential in a single day, right? In a single day. Going from frost all the way to 90 degrees. I'd never grown up around that. I'd never grown my own food. And when you realize just how hard it is to grow things... it was just an incredibly moving education. And that to me is sort of the foundation of my understanding of New Mexico.
MB:
Do your photographs make a difference? I mean, I don't know what the articles are about or what the particular publications are, but do you feel like your photographs are able to make a difference for the farmers, either exposure or - or showing people how hard it is to do their job?
GM:
I don't know. It is interesting. It's interesting because you don't get likes in a magazine, and at the end of the day I'm still a print photographer. I shoot stills for print.
MB:
There's a feeling that goes along with seeing your image in print - in a magazine.
GM:
Yeah. And people live with them. You know, they're on in the back of the toilet. They're on the coffee table. They're next to the mail that you didn't open, and you're flipping through while you're on the phone. I mean, magazines, print, is still a part of people's lives that way. And I'm actually more interested in being a part of someone's life that way than a friend scrolling through and hitting a like on something. My interaction on Instagram has gone almost exclusively just to, like, my chickens and whatever I'm doing on the day. And the chickens, by the way, are massively popular!
MB:
Yes. Cute as hell.
GM:
They are more chickens online than my professional work.
MB:
How do you deliver your assignments?
GM:
Everything is digital now. And out where I live, we can't get very fast internet, so I often drive into town to upload if I have a big upload, or ideally I'm mailing out hard drives. I mean that's, that's the best. It depends on how many files I'm delivering. And now every agency has its own platform and I'm uploading to all these. Every client has their own way of doing things, whether it's FTP or they're on some sort of content management system.
MB:
Do you process your images, or do they want RAW files, or both?
GM:
Some want RAW. Most just want jpegs.
MB:
So you get a chance to control what they look like? Do you do post-production?
GM:
I do. I do quite a bit of post. Yeah. I mean, I would like to do more but I don't really wanna spend all that much time in front of the computer. I'm happiest when I'm out doing things. And there's so much beautiful, sumptuous composite work and things like that, but I would rather get as much as I can in camera, and then fix things that I can't. But then, like, the New York Times, you're not allowed to touch a thing, right?
MB:
They have to be able to prove a RAW file.
GM:
And they're going to authenticate it. Like Leica has the new authentication feature.
Audience Question:
Do you allow the clients to process the files, to do anything with them without your say so?
GM:
Some - like Food Network - they're going to do it whether or not I want them to. That's just, like, their deal. But most of the time no one would touch an image. Most people don't have time. I mean, we're always on deadline. We are always like delivering and people don't have time.
MB:
Real journalism - you don't touch.
GM:
Real journalism - I don't touch. Well, I might add a tiny bit of density in highlights or something, but I'm not bringing in clouds, I'm not fixing hair, I'm not doing any of that. But recently a law firm, they wanted everything. They wanted all the RAW, they wanted everything. That's because, you know...
MB:
That's because "Marge" in their office is a Photoshop WIZ!
GM:
You know what it is? The industry is constantly shifting, and right now there is a big push for genre specific marketing. So I've worked with groups that only work with dentists, I work with groups that only work with lawyers, or a specific kind of law. They're national firms that are doing very specific marketing, and they want RAWs because they're basically managing media assets for their clients and they want the most so that they have latitude. I don't like giving RAWs. I prefer not to. Because again, I don't like to show my process all that much.
MB:
I always liken it to going into a five star restaurant, getting your entree delivered and then saying, I really need to come in and look at that garbage can in the kitchen because I'm sure you guys missed some good stuff in there. You know, the process is shoot a lot and and get to the point where you want to get to. That is the photographic process.
GM:
Well it's almost like in print, you know, back when photographers were printing their own work, even for magazines, what you do in the darkroom is as much as what you do in the camera.
Audience Question:
When you photograph food, does it activate your taste sense, or is it purely visual?
GM:
It totally activates my taste sense. Yeah.
I mean, I smell it before I see it, even. It's a very sort of sensual experience in that way. I smell it. I see it.
MB:
When you're shooting food, are you controlling what food is being shot? Is there a food stylist?
GM:
Rarely. I mean, for regional editorial food, chefs are plating and doing their thing. And sometimes that's the three-day-old parsley that you don't want in the shot. And sometimes it's exquisite, you know, sculpture.
Audience Question:
But you shoot it differently if you're smelling it and imagining the taste, than if you're shooting strictly as a visual.
GM:
Even though I don't usually eat it. But I'm still having the full sensory experience with it. I'm trying to provide an enticement? So I want to show, like, how pleasing would this be when it's set before a person? And I'll ask the chef what they think is the front of the plate, and then I'll figure out what I think is the front of the plate. And I'll probably shoot both. Especially on a round plate, you have a lot of options.
And often what they want to feature is actually not what makes it interesting.
I'm into real food.
MB:
Okay. So we're going to shift gears. I want to get everything in, so we're going to talk about portraiture. And again, you do studio work and you do environmental portraiture. When do you choose which one you're going to do? Or do you get to? I mean, will an art director ask you for something against a backdrop or something like that, or do you get to interpret what you're going to do your way?
PORTRAITS:
GM:
It is actually probably more client driven? I mean, if I get Exodus Ensemble, for an Exodus Ensemble performance - we were creating vignettes and scenarios and we were sort of getting very narrative, on the locations where they perform, which can be a house or a trailer or anywhere. It's often really client driven in terms of what does the client want to convey. So for instance, when I'm shooting a beauty salon, I want everybody styled. I want everyone to be planning out specific shots where every single outfit and the hair and the makeup, they all correspond. So we're creating a vision, right? Which sort of communicates what they're trying to sell. But if it's - um - an author, it's much different. And that's really more about facial expression and small details and things like that. Or their pets.
Julia Cameron, do you know the book The Artist's Way? She lives here. Photographing her is really interesting, like - seeing her space.
MB:
That's where you pick up things from location. That's where you pick up clues and you get to feature things that you find. That's the whole purpose of an environmental portrait is you get to see where and how that person lives.
GM:
I think we are endlessly fascinated by that. I'm a huge voyeur. I think most photographers are. And going into somebody's home or their creative space or any place where someone spends a lot of time, you get so much about a person.
MB:
So you said this one chef that you recently shot - you've shot for a long time?
GM:
14 years.
MB:
You have a lot of those kinds of ongoing relationships?
GM:
I actually do. I'm a serial monogamist with a lot of my clients. We do long term relationship. I mean, they are folks I've worked with for over a decade and the thing that I want to do is I want to go in and I just don't want to do the same thing everyone else has done. So it actually becomes more challenging sometimes if you know somebody because it's just like, okay, well we did the direct marketing shot. Now what's interesting, but still unique to this restaurant or your plates or anything like that.
MB:
And I think there's also a fine line that you walk there where - I never wanted somebody's friend to see the picture I made of them and go, "Why did they make you do THAT?" So it has to be sincere, right?
GM:
Not to be contrived. Yeah. But, I mean, the beauty of the "long exposure" over a decade - is trust. Because I now know the folks, and so we can play more and that's fun.
MB:
Because not only have you done a session, or many, with them, but they've seen the results of that and they know they're in good hands.
GM:
I'm not going to publish anything where they look terrible.
MB:
Yeah, Yeah.
GM:
There's so much trust involved in photographing a person, you know, it feels very vulnerable to be photographed.
MB:
And it's a collaboration.
GM:
At the end of the day, I want it to be a good experience for someone almost more than I want the perfect shot. Like, I am not going to have someone holding a very specific position for a long period of time, you know, like the way a fashion photographer might or something like that, because I'm actually looking for that touch of spontaneity. I want to be surprised just as much as they might be, and then be "on" enough to capture that moment of spontaneity or surprise. But that means being very present.
MB:
I think so. And, you know, as much as I hate the whole concept of, what is it they call it, "spray and pray"?
GM:
Spray and pray, I have not heard that.
MB:
You know, where you just push the button down and the faster the motor drive you've got, the better it's going to be. There's got to be something in there. But I do find that with people a lot of the time, being able to have a sequence of exposures of them, I get the moment in between the moment, and that's the one.
GM:
Almost always, like after I say, "Okay, we got the shot", that's it. Because then something fun will happen. Are people walking into a scene or walking off the scene? And I actually think a lot about the music photography because the music photography was so much about being in rhythm. I mean, I felt like I was part of the band half the time when I was shooting bands because you're so in the music. But a lot of that is timing. And the same with shooting dance. When you get a sense of how someone's moving, you sort of begin to get an intuitive sense of timing.
MB:
You anticipate. I mean, you have to know before it happens.
GM:
Be ready before. Yeah.
MB:
I always think it's the first shot of a portrait session and the last shot. The first shot they just don't know you've started...
GM:
Yeah. Because I'll just start shooting while I'm talking and be very low key about it. But once I start bringing out lights...
MB:
Yeah, that's a tough thing. 'Real people' and lights is a really tough thing, because then they're overly intimidated. It's not just a lens looking at them, but there's a mechanism going off.
GM:
And there are blinkers. There are!
MB:
Oh yeah. For sure.
And so, when you get an assignment, it's probably about an article that's been written. It has a perspective. Do you go in with a plan.
GM:
I try to.
MB:
Having, having not scouted, having not met the person beforehand, as a pro you have to go in knowing you're going to come out with something. But at the same time, you're looking for spontaneity and you're looking for some real moment to happen in that kind of artificial situation. Right?
GM:
Right.
MB:
How do you do that? Do you go in with a plan? Do you ever follow your plan?
GM:
If I have a specific shot list, then I do have a plan.
MB:
They give you a shot list? Sometimes they need a specific thing? They need the room and...?
GM:
And I'm definitely thinking in terms of establishing, mid, and detail - all the time. I mean, that's one of the first things. So when I'm driving up to a farm or something, I'll be shooting in the car on the way up, you know, just like, what does it look like when you're approaching it? What does it look like? What is the setting and then going in deeper and deeper and deeper? Like a film.
MB:
It's very cinematic. I mean, if you're trying to tell a story, you kind of have to do that. And angles, and reverses, and all that kind of stuff.
GM:
But so often the nature of editorial work is you're troubleshooting. I'm troubleshooting 90% of the time.
MB:
Yeah. Well it's solving problems.
GM:
Yes. Quickly.
MB:
The client comes to you with it with a with a set of things that they need to accomplish from the shoot. It's not just taking pictures. It's taking effective pictures.
GM:
And there's also when you're shooting for a client rather than doing editorial work, sometimes there's a certain expectation of performance. Mm. They want a certain performance - what the photographer does and how the photographer acts.
MB:
They want their money's worth.
GM:
Yes. Yes. Am I bringing out enough lights to warrant that price tag? Does it look "photographer-y"?
MB:
Ooh. Like in the movies.
GM:
Every time I see a photographer in a movie, it disgusts me.
MB:
Yes.
GM:
It's always off. It's always wrong. They never get it right.
MB:
Especially when they have strobes set up, but they're not flashing. But they continue to take pictures anyway.
I want to ask you real quickly about ASMP. I've been involved for, I don't know, ten or 15 years, something like that. You've been involved probably longer.
GM:
No, I think about that amount of time.
MB:
In a world where licensing and the business of photography seems to be disappearing except for a handful of upper echelon photographers, I just think that ASMP offers so much about the business - about the practical side of being a photographer.
GM:
Well, there's the business, but there's also, I mean, the reason I'm in ASMP is Tony Bonanno, who is one of the previous guests here. You know, one of the first things he said to me the first time I went out to his studio is you've got you got to join ASMP. And I thought he was kind of joking. I was like, but I didn't go to school for this. I learned either by shooting or assisting for people, but I didn't even do that much assisting, really. Assisting for a friend in San Francisco who just happened to be a great photographer.
But the imposter syndrome. I can say I'm a photographer - but am I a real photographer? What's a real photographer? Right? Is that someone who makes money or someone who takes great images? And is it a real photographer? It's not a phone?
Joining ASMP gave me some of that personal credibility where I felt, okay, now I'm taking myself seriously. And it gave me access to the community of people here. I mean, some folks don't know, unlike almost every other state in the union, there is no real photography store here in New Mexico. There's no real rental shop here. I mean, in San Francisco, I was renting lights and lenses all the time.
MB:
In LA I knew photographers who didn't own cameras.
GM:
Yeah. But here you either own it or, you know who has it and you can borrow it. And that grows the community here.
And there's more good stuff coming from ASMP. We're getting a really good business insurance offer that's coming out soon. We're getting a lot of corporate sponsorship for the Academy that we're doing. We're going to start doing a drone certification, a Capture One certification. We're going to start doing some more certification as well, in addition to the contests and those sorts of things.
MB:
I think we just have to get the word out.
GM:
Yes. And generations are becoming less and less 'joiners'. And for some of the reasons that I joined, which was to learn things I didn't know, people are going to YouTube now. And being accountable for some of the older guard in ASMP that really isn't prepared to invite in people who are creating content differently than the way they did. You're not a real photographer, but I am, right? And we're trying to be more inclusive with that as well.
AUDIENCE:
What is ASMP?
GM:
Well - it's actually the American Society for Meningitis Prevention... that's a new one, and it just came out.
MB:
No kidding? Memberships will flood in!
GM
Ours is the American Society of Media Photographers.
MB:
It was originally "magazine photographers". We updated it.
GM:
We have media professionals - we have directors, we have ad reps, photo buyers, we have museum curators. It's mostly photographers though. And we're all, for the most part, independent business owners. And that's a lot of the support that we're trying to provide. I mean, some of the support that we provide is creating events where you can learn lighting and things like that. But a lot of it is just like, how do you pay taxes? How do you license an image? What does a contract look like? Some of this really basic stuff that people do not learn in school.
MB:
It's the stuff that nobody wants to deal with and it'll catch you later. Contracts, model releases, property releases - all the business stuff:.
GM:
And now when you're hiring an assistant in most states, you can't hire the way you used to because if you're hiring, it actually has to be an employee. I mean, there's a lot more... I know photographers here in the state who still don't have CRS numbers, but I'm not going to share their names. I mean, it's how seriously do you want to take your business and can the art of photography still be fun as a business?
And I think the community of ASMP is part of what's so great.
AUDIENCE:
Probably pretty much every famous photographer you can think of has been a member of ASMP.
GM:
We have letters from Ansel Adams.
AUDIENCE:
LIFE and LOOK. From the forties, 50, 60 and 70s and probably before.
GM:
This is our 80th year. We are turning 80 this fall.
AUDIENCE:
Pretty much everyone you can think of was a member of ASMP, and this past week there was were Zoom workshops, and something I realized - I don't have an archive trust for my photography. Somebody to manage your archive. If you all have wills, have you done something about what happens to your pictures? I haven't - and it just hit me on Wednesday or Thursday like a ton of bricks!
GM:
You know, think about your life's work, right? Your life's work and do you have a legacy? Is that something you can pass on?
AUDIENCE:
And are the Zoom meetings available to just members or to anyone?
GM
They're open to everyone.
AUDIENCE:
I thought there was a lobbying wing that dealt with copyright.
GM
We still lobby. We're the only organization that retains a lobbyist on Capitol Hill specifically. And with AI becoming more and more of an issue, ASMP is in those conversations. Our lawyer was just in DC with the Copyright Office. We are very active in that world - and we have to be because, at the end of the day, a photographer, and especially young photographers, don't realize your copyright is your greatest value and you've got to know how to protect that and you've got to know how to register that. And everything is going to get very fuzzy with AI.
MB:
And ASMP was literally founded to give photographers rights to their own work.
GM:
We were working for years to create the Small Claims Copyright Tribunal, which we now have the Case Act. Things like that, because regular people can't afford to go to federal court to fight copyright. And that happened - it's one of the only good things that happened during COVID.
MB:
So you can own it, but you can't do anything about it.
GM:
What is her name - Lynn Goldsmith? She can afford to do that. But I can't. She's a rock photographer. She's the photographer who photographed Prince and just had a positive settlement against the Warhol Trust because they claimed that there was fair use of her image when they ran it on the cover.
AUDIENCE:
I'm not a photographer. I mean, I take family photographs.
GM:
That's a photographer, though.
MB:
You are an historic documentarian.
AUDIENCE:
But I have a question about this. What was all that silliness around Princess Catherine's photo? If you take a photograph and it's a family photograph and you want to alter the sleeve of the shirt, what's wrong with that?
GM:
Apparently what made it big was the palace issuing a kill order to all media outlets. And that's only done like once or twice a century. It's a very, very unusual thing. So that immediately just made it big news.
MB:
And after claiming transparency...
GM:
Well I think everyone needed a little easy news, but you know going into an election, these things are going to be very important.
But there's some really interesting stuff happening with AI too. As can be expected., artists get these tools in their hands and they do weird, fun things. One of the winning entries from the TIME/ASMP contest that we just ran was a series of AI generated images. Someone photographed the backs of people in public, like the back of someone on a bus, the back of someone on a street, and then had AI create what the front of that person should look like. And it was a really fascinating series. It was a very interesting flip of portraiture that's happening.
AUDIENCE:
It's really fun, but we're being tricked.
GM:
No one wants to be tricked.
MB:
Let's do some more questions.
AUDIENCE:
So particularly with the pictures of farms and chefs, it seems like you pair images a lot. Would you talk about that?
GM:
Well, I love pairing an unexpected detail with a portrait or an environmental portrait or an environment, because I think creating that contrast, especially if it's a surprising element or one that you don't expect, I think you bust open your notions of what you think you're looking at, or bring more nuance to it. You know, we've all seen photographs of farms and beautiful farmers doing farmer-y things. But then when you can find something that brings nuance to that, that's what I like to do with diptychs, often, is is create a sense of contrast and maybe even conflict or surprise.
AUDIENCE:
It looks like a fun game.
GM:
It is. But also when it comes to creating portfolios and things like that, I hire an editor. I cannot edit my own work. I look at every image. I remember what I was listening to when I edited it, what we were talking about when I photographed it. It's far too personal. I have no perspective. That's actually really challenging for me.
MB:
And you're always lucky when you end up with an art director or designer who has really good taste and knows how to use what you give them, right?
GM
Yes. I mean, I have learned to only give the ones that I really want to see in print. I used to be like, well, I want them to have a wide selection. I don't know what story they are telling and what is the rhythm of the layout. And now I'm like - Oh, I'm not going to send this one.
MB:
Because that's the one that'll be the cover with your name really big!
Anybody else?
Audience:
Put your ASMP cap on. What are the biggest challenges for new photographers today?
GM:
I think that some of the biggest challenges are understanding how to convey your value to a client and how to price what you're doing and how to accurately scope what you're going to provide. I think when photographers are starting out, they're so keen have the opportunity that they will do it either for credit or they will massively over deliver or over scope. So I think a lot of it comes down to the simplicity of keeping things simple, like starting out with smaller assignments where you can meet the deadline. It all comes down to communication, actually. Communicating clearly how the client will receive what they're going to receive, how you're going to invoice, what your estimate means. I mean, I would prefer to put together an estimate that's very specific about what I do. But most people actually just want a flat fee.
MB:
If you do an estimate internally, you can give them a flat fee. If they don't want a breakdown of it, that's fine. But I always found there there are things, when you're working with a small corporate client, and I don't know how it works with an editorial client, but I wouldn't be allowed to hire a producer. So if they were going to sort of produce the job - call all their employees, have them show up on time - then THEY are going to communicate to them what they should wear, etc.. If you get them to agree to that, they still don't understand that you have to take a lunch break, that it takes time to move from one shot to the next, load-in, etc.
GM:
You have to feed people, and you have to charge mileage, have a reasonable turnaround time ...
MB:
Yeah, Yeah. That stuff, they don't understand. So some sort of a deal memo, if you can't do a full contract, that breaks down, you're responsible for this. I'm responsible for this. You're going to pay me this...
GM:
And a memo is a great way to put it. Yeah, I would say so much of it is communication, communicating exactly what they'll be receiving and how you are delivering.
MB:
Because younger photographers are thinking like a photographer, but not a businessman.
GM:
And I also, if I really want to do something, I will go out and scout. If I know something as a potential cover, I will put more time into it than I'm getting paid for, because that's my production value.
MB:
Because it's going to be your name on it.
GM:
Yeah.
MB:
Yeah.
Q & A:
AUDIENCE:
Is generative AI, at this stage, a risk?
GM:
Yeah. I think it absolutely is. But also, I think Adobe has already begun licensing stock to feed its generative AI because in Photoshop you can do a generative fill. I can say I want to see more trees over here. I don't know whose trees they're taking from if I'm not providing a tree, but they're starting to pay licensing and I don't even know - it's probably cents on the pixel, right? Like very, very small.
And yet at the same time, my clients are asking me to provide the kind of things that AI will do. And in part it's much cheaper for them if I can say, well, "I can change that in post". "I can add that in post". And how much of that I decide to do depends on the client. And it's very case-by-case scenario now, but clients have the expectation of it whether or not I want to provide it.
MB:
Because they think it's just pushing the button.
GM:
And they and they see or they hear on commercials. I mean, the osmosis of how people are absorbing what it is, what it can do - like people who don't even know what post is say, "Oh, can you fix it in post?"
It's going to be a very contentious landscape. But it I mean, you know, when we switched to digital... I think we should always anticipate those. I mean, one of the things I so admire about you is you (Reid Callanan - Santa Fe Workshops) continue to stay agile, you continue to learn new things. And I think we all have to do that.
AUDIENCE:
When you shoot a job, do you know OWN THOSE NEGS?
GM:
Unless I sign a work-for-hire contract, yes.
AUDIENCE:
And you could do with them what you want?
GM:
Well there's always an embargo for print, right? So whoever I'm shooting for gets the embargo. They get to say "We debut the images, we're paying for them. We debut them."
Once they're out, I can re-license.
MB:
You're not doing exclusive licensing?
GM:
If it's a bigger client and they pay for a buyout, like when the California Almond Board paid for a buyout that was awesome! I won't use any of those ever again. But so much of what I do is so specific, a lot of my stuff is not re-licensable. No one cares about that farmer holding that beet, you know. Which is different than music photography where people are going for specific images of Jackson Browne or something like that.
AUDIENCE:
Do you have a stock agency that handles your work?
GM:
I don't.
MB:
I don't even know if stock is a viable thing anymore, right?
GM:
It is to some degree. I mean, Getty is still producing stock shoots. And those are still lucrative. I've never been that kind of photographer, though, where I like close down the terminal of a small airport, you know, set up a bunch of shots, that kind of thing. But honestly, I'm much more interested in just shooting the next thing than building a big stock archive. Maybe it's the double Gemini, it's the ADHD? I'm more excited to go out and think about the next thing.
AUDIENCE:
Are all your images copyrighted?
GM: No. I don't register the copyright for everything. I only register copyright for things that I think are more important.
MB:
If you don't register it, you still own it. It's just more difficult to receive damages if you sue.
GM:
That's my understanding.
AUDIENCE:
If anybody uses your image, you can go after them.
GM:
Now, there are a lot of services that will crawl Web sites looking for digital signatures and things like that. But again, most of my stuff is not the kind of stuff that - I mean, I would love it if farmers were as popular as rock artists, but they're not. I think they're as important. But the stuff I'm shooting is not the kind of stuff that people are going to steal, for the most part.
MB:
And you're not going to be able to afford to go after it.
GM:
I mean, I think about that. You know, you never know who's crawling through your website and doing all that kind of stuff. And Instagram. Who knows where it's being taken from Instagram. There's probably a magazine in India that shows my jewelry photography and I don't know about it.
AUDIENCE:
I'll go online and there's a picture of Bob Dylan, right? And I didn't give them permission.
GM:
Well, that's the difference between a 1960s Rock-n-Roll celebrity.
AUDIENCE:
And so I can go after that person.
GM:
Yeah, you can. I mean, it's going be a lot of time, a lot of energy. I mean, Jim Marshall had three lawyers, I think, who were constantly going after, you know, for that one, Johnny Cash shot at Folsom Prison. Because that was his single most stolen image. But I'm just not interested in being that business. And most of what I send out, unless it's specifically to a client, nothing that's online is of resolution that can actually be used.
AUDIENCE:
There are several law firms now that have employees whose sole job is to pore through pictures and text looking for copyright infringement, and then they try to get you to...
GM:
Like an ambulance chaser. Well, ASMP is in the process, I think I can share this, of partnering with a company called Rights Click which you can retain to go after, you know, hunting down your images.
MB:
This kind of leads me into this: I just wanted to mention this for a second because now, I think with AI, it's become even more important than when I first kind of proposed it to ASMP about ten years ago. But I've just been thinking that it would be really nice if photographer credits now included a verb - "photographed by"...
GM
Oh, I like that.
MB:
Because if it's a "real" photograph by a "real" photographer, a person stood in that place and took that picture.
GM
Yes.
MB:
There's a bunch of other resources for pictures, now completely non-photographic pictures that are being made up by AI. But I'd love to see this start to be included in photographers' contracts.
GM
I like that. And I like the typography there.
MB:
And I think that's it.
GM
Thank you, Mark. And thank you Pilar for hosting. Thank you so much.
It is actually probably more client driven? I mean, if I get Exodus Ensemble, for an Exodus Ensemble performance - we were creating vignettes and scenarios and we were sort of getting very narrative, on the locations where they perform, which can be a house or a trailer or anywhere. It's often really client driven in terms of what does the client want to convey. So for instance, when I'm shooting a beauty salon, I want everybody styled. I want everyone to be planning out specific shots where every single outfit and the hair and the makeup, they all correspond. So we're creating a vision, right? Which sort of communicates what they're trying to sell. But if it's - um - an author, it's much different. And that's really more about facial expression and small details and things like that. Or their pets.
Julia Cameron, do you know the book The Artist's Way? She lives here. Photographing her is really interesting, like - seeing her space.
MB:
That's where you pick up things from location. That's where you pick up clues and you get to feature things that you find. That's the whole purpose of an environmental portrait is you get to see where and how that person lives.
GM:
I think we are endlessly fascinated by that. I'm a huge voyeur. I think most photographers are. And going into somebody's home or their creative space or any place where someone spends a lot of time, you get so much about a person.
MB:
So you said this one chef that you recently shot - you've shot for a long time?
GM:
14 years.
MB:
You have a lot of those kinds of ongoing relationships?
GM:
I actually do. I'm a serial monogamist with a lot of my clients. We do long term relationship. I mean, they are folks I've worked with for over a decade and the thing that I want to do is I want to go in and I just don't want to do the same thing everyone else has done. So it actually becomes more challenging sometimes if you know somebody because it's just like, okay, well we did the direct marketing shot. Now what's interesting, but still unique to this restaurant or your plates or anything like that.
MB:
And I think there's also a fine line that you walk there where - I never wanted somebody's friend to see the picture I made of them and go, "Why did they make you do THAT?" So it has to be sincere, right?
GM:
Not to be contrived. Yeah. But, I mean, the beauty of the "long exposure" over a decade - is trust. Because I now know the folks, and so we can play more and that's fun.
MB:
Because not only have you done a session, or many, with them, but they've seen the results of that and they know they're in good hands.
GM:
I'm not going to publish anything where they look terrible.
MB:
Yeah, Yeah.
GM:
There's so much trust involved in photographing a person, you know, it feels very vulnerable to be photographed.
MB:
And it's a collaboration.
GM:
At the end of the day, I want it to be a good experience for someone almost more than I want the perfect shot. Like, I am not going to have someone holding a very specific position for a long period of time, you know, like the way a fashion photographer might or something like that, because I'm actually looking for that touch of spontaneity. I want to be surprised just as much as they might be, and then be "on" enough to capture that moment of spontaneity or surprise. But that means being very present.
MB:
I think so. And, you know, as much as I hate the whole concept of, what is it they call it, "spray and pray"?
GM:
Spray and pray, I have not heard that.
MB:
You know, where you just push the button down and the faster the motor drive you've got, the better it's going to be. There's got to be something in there. But I do find that with people a lot of the time, being able to have a sequence of exposures of them, I get the moment in between the moment, and that's the one.
GM:
Almost always, like after I say, "Okay, we got the shot", that's it. Because then something fun will happen. Are people walking into a scene or walking off the scene? And I actually think a lot about the music photography because the music photography was so much about being in rhythm. I mean, I felt like I was part of the band half the time when I was shooting bands because you're so in the music. But a lot of that is timing. And the same with shooting dance. When you get a sense of how someone's moving, you sort of begin to get an intuitive sense of timing.
MB:
You anticipate. I mean, you have to know before it happens.
GM:
Be ready before. Yeah.
MB:
I always think it's the first shot of a portrait session and the last shot. The first shot they just don't know you've started...
GM:
Yeah. Because I'll just start shooting while I'm talking and be very low key about it. But once I start bringing out lights...
MB:
Yeah, that's a tough thing. 'Real people' and lights is a really tough thing, because then they're overly intimidated. It's not just a lens looking at them, but there's a mechanism going off.
GM:
And there are blinkers. There are!
MB:
Oh yeah. For sure.
And so, when you get an assignment, it's probably about an article that's been written. It has a perspective. Do you go in with a plan.
GM:
I try to.
MB:
Having, having not scouted, having not met the person beforehand, as a pro you have to go in knowing you're going to come out with something. But at the same time, you're looking for spontaneity and you're looking for some real moment to happen in that kind of artificial situation. Right?
GM:
Right.
MB:
How do you do that? Do you go in with a plan? Do you ever follow your plan?
GM:
If I have a specific shot list, then I do have a plan.
MB:
They give you a shot list? Sometimes they need a specific thing? They need the room and...?
GM:
And I'm definitely thinking in terms of establishing, mid, and detail - all the time. I mean, that's one of the first things. So when I'm driving up to a farm or something, I'll be shooting in the car on the way up, you know, just like, what does it look like when you're approaching it? What does it look like? What is the setting and then going in deeper and deeper and deeper? Like a film.
MB:
It's very cinematic. I mean, if you're trying to tell a story, you kind of have to do that. And angles, and reverses, and all that kind of stuff.
GM:
But so often the nature of editorial work is you're troubleshooting. I'm troubleshooting 90% of the time.
MB:
Yeah. Well it's solving problems.
GM:
Yes. Quickly.
MB:
The client comes to you with it with a with a set of things that they need to accomplish from the shoot. It's not just taking pictures. It's taking effective pictures.
GM:
And there's also when you're shooting for a client rather than doing editorial work, sometimes there's a certain expectation of performance. Mm. They want a certain performance - what the photographer does and how the photographer acts.
MB:
They want their money's worth.
GM:
Yes. Yes. Am I bringing out enough lights to warrant that price tag? Does it look "photographer-y"?
MB:
Ooh. Like in the movies.
GM:
Every time I see a photographer in a movie, it disgusts me.
MB:
Yes.
GM:
It's always off. It's always wrong. They never get it right.
MB:
Especially when they have strobes set up, but they're not flashing. But they continue to take pictures anyway.
I want to ask you real quickly about ASMP. I've been involved for, I don't know, ten or 15 years, something like that. You've been involved probably longer.
GM:
No, I think about that amount of time.
MB:
In a world where licensing and the business of photography seems to be disappearing except for a handful of upper echelon photographers, I just think that ASMP offers so much about the business - about the practical side of being a photographer.
GM:
Well, there's the business, but there's also, I mean, the reason I'm in ASMP is Tony Bonanno, who is one of the previous guests here. You know, one of the first things he said to me the first time I went out to his studio is you've got you got to join ASMP. And I thought he was kind of joking. I was like, but I didn't go to school for this. I learned either by shooting or assisting for people, but I didn't even do that much assisting, really. Assisting for a friend in San Francisco who just happened to be a great photographer.
But the imposter syndrome. I can say I'm a photographer - but am I a real photographer? What's a real photographer? Right? Is that someone who makes money or someone who takes great images? And is it a real photographer? It's not a phone?
Joining ASMP gave me some of that personal credibility where I felt, okay, now I'm taking myself seriously. And it gave me access to the community of people here. I mean, some folks don't know, unlike almost every other state in the union, there is no real photography store here in New Mexico. There's no real rental shop here. I mean, in San Francisco, I was renting lights and lenses all the time.
MB:
In LA I knew photographers who didn't own cameras.
GM:
Yeah. But here you either own it or, you know who has it and you can borrow it. And that grows the community here.
And there's more good stuff coming from ASMP. We're getting a really good business insurance offer that's coming out soon. We're getting a lot of corporate sponsorship for the Academy that we're doing. We're going to start doing a drone certification, a Capture One certification. We're going to start doing some more certification as well, in addition to the contests and those sorts of things.
MB:
I think we just have to get the word out.
GM:
Yes. And generations are becoming less and less 'joiners'. And for some of the reasons that I joined, which was to learn things I didn't know, people are going to YouTube now. And being accountable for some of the older guard in ASMP that really isn't prepared to invite in people who are creating content differently than the way they did. You're not a real photographer, but I am, right? And we're trying to be more inclusive with that as well.
AUDIENCE:
What is ASMP?
GM:
Well - it's actually the American Society for Meningitis Prevention... that's a new one, and it just came out.
MB:
No kidding? Memberships will flood in!
GM
Ours is the American Society of Media Photographers.
MB:
It was originally "magazine photographers". We updated it.
GM:
We have media professionals - we have directors, we have ad reps, photo buyers, we have museum curators. It's mostly photographers though. And we're all, for the most part, independent business owners. And that's a lot of the support that we're trying to provide. I mean, some of the support that we provide is creating events where you can learn lighting and things like that. But a lot of it is just like, how do you pay taxes? How do you license an image? What does a contract look like? Some of this really basic stuff that people do not learn in school.
MB:
It's the stuff that nobody wants to deal with and it'll catch you later. Contracts, model releases, property releases - all the business stuff:.
GM:
And now when you're hiring an assistant in most states, you can't hire the way you used to because if you're hiring, it actually has to be an employee. I mean, there's a lot more... I know photographers here in the state who still don't have CRS numbers, but I'm not going to share their names. I mean, it's how seriously do you want to take your business and can the art of photography still be fun as a business?
And I think the community of ASMP is part of what's so great.
AUDIENCE:
Probably pretty much every famous photographer you can think of has been a member of ASMP.
GM:
We have letters from Ansel Adams.
AUDIENCE:
LIFE and LOOK. From the forties, 50, 60 and 70s and probably before.
GM:
This is our 80th year. We are turning 80 this fall.
AUDIENCE:
Pretty much everyone you can think of was a member of ASMP, and this past week there was were Zoom workshops, and something I realized - I don't have an archive trust for my photography. Somebody to manage your archive. If you all have wills, have you done something about what happens to your pictures? I haven't - and it just hit me on Wednesday or Thursday like a ton of bricks!
GM:
You know, think about your life's work, right? Your life's work and do you have a legacy? Is that something you can pass on?
AUDIENCE:
And are the Zoom meetings available to just members or to anyone?
GM
They're open to everyone.
AUDIENCE:
I thought there was a lobbying wing that dealt with copyright.
GM
We still lobby. We're the only organization that retains a lobbyist on Capitol Hill specifically. And with AI becoming more and more of an issue, ASMP is in those conversations. Our lawyer was just in DC with the Copyright Office. We are very active in that world - and we have to be because, at the end of the day, a photographer, and especially young photographers, don't realize your copyright is your greatest value and you've got to know how to protect that and you've got to know how to register that. And everything is going to get very fuzzy with AI.
MB:
And ASMP was literally founded to give photographers rights to their own work.
GM:
We were working for years to create the Small Claims Copyright Tribunal, which we now have the Case Act. Things like that, because regular people can't afford to go to federal court to fight copyright. And that happened - it's one of the only good things that happened during COVID.
MB:
So you can own it, but you can't do anything about it.
GM:
What is her name - Lynn Goldsmith? She can afford to do that. But I can't. She's a rock photographer. She's the photographer who photographed Prince and just had a positive settlement against the Warhol Trust because they claimed that there was fair use of her image when they ran it on the cover.
AUDIENCE:
I'm not a photographer. I mean, I take family photographs.
GM:
That's a photographer, though.
MB:
You are an historic documentarian.
AUDIENCE:
But I have a question about this. What was all that silliness around Princess Catherine's photo? If you take a photograph and it's a family photograph and you want to alter the sleeve of the shirt, what's wrong with that?
GM:
Apparently what made it big was the palace issuing a kill order to all media outlets. And that's only done like once or twice a century. It's a very, very unusual thing. So that immediately just made it big news.
MB:
And after claiming transparency...
GM:
Well I think everyone needed a little easy news, but you know going into an election, these things are going to be very important.
But there's some really interesting stuff happening with AI too. As can be expected., artists get these tools in their hands and they do weird, fun things. One of the winning entries from the TIME/ASMP contest that we just ran was a series of AI generated images. Someone photographed the backs of people in public, like the back of someone on a bus, the back of someone on a street, and then had AI create what the front of that person should look like. And it was a really fascinating series. It was a very interesting flip of portraiture that's happening.
AUDIENCE:
It's really fun, but we're being tricked.
GM:
No one wants to be tricked.
MB:
Let's do some more questions.
AUDIENCE:
So particularly with the pictures of farms and chefs, it seems like you pair images a lot. Would you talk about that?
GM:
Well, I love pairing an unexpected detail with a portrait or an environmental portrait or an environment, because I think creating that contrast, especially if it's a surprising element or one that you don't expect, I think you bust open your notions of what you think you're looking at, or bring more nuance to it. You know, we've all seen photographs of farms and beautiful farmers doing farmer-y things. But then when you can find something that brings nuance to that, that's what I like to do with diptychs, often, is is create a sense of contrast and maybe even conflict or surprise.
AUDIENCE:
It looks like a fun game.
GM:
It is. But also when it comes to creating portfolios and things like that, I hire an editor. I cannot edit my own work. I look at every image. I remember what I was listening to when I edited it, what we were talking about when I photographed it. It's far too personal. I have no perspective. That's actually really challenging for me.
MB:
And you're always lucky when you end up with an art director or designer who has really good taste and knows how to use what you give them, right?
GM
Yes. I mean, I have learned to only give the ones that I really want to see in print. I used to be like, well, I want them to have a wide selection. I don't know what story they are telling and what is the rhythm of the layout. And now I'm like - Oh, I'm not going to send this one.
MB:
Because that's the one that'll be the cover with your name really big!
Anybody else?
Audience:
Put your ASMP cap on. What are the biggest challenges for new photographers today?
GM:
I think that some of the biggest challenges are understanding how to convey your value to a client and how to price what you're doing and how to accurately scope what you're going to provide. I think when photographers are starting out, they're so keen have the opportunity that they will do it either for credit or they will massively over deliver or over scope. So I think a lot of it comes down to the simplicity of keeping things simple, like starting out with smaller assignments where you can meet the deadline. It all comes down to communication, actually. Communicating clearly how the client will receive what they're going to receive, how you're going to invoice, what your estimate means. I mean, I would prefer to put together an estimate that's very specific about what I do. But most people actually just want a flat fee.
MB:
If you do an estimate internally, you can give them a flat fee. If they don't want a breakdown of it, that's fine. But I always found there there are things, when you're working with a small corporate client, and I don't know how it works with an editorial client, but I wouldn't be allowed to hire a producer. So if they were going to sort of produce the job - call all their employees, have them show up on time - then THEY are going to communicate to them what they should wear, etc.. If you get them to agree to that, they still don't understand that you have to take a lunch break, that it takes time to move from one shot to the next, load-in, etc.
GM:
You have to feed people, and you have to charge mileage, have a reasonable turnaround time ...
MB:
Yeah, Yeah. That stuff, they don't understand. So some sort of a deal memo, if you can't do a full contract, that breaks down, you're responsible for this. I'm responsible for this. You're going to pay me this...
GM:
And a memo is a great way to put it. Yeah, I would say so much of it is communication, communicating exactly what they'll be receiving and how you are delivering.
MB:
Because younger photographers are thinking like a photographer, but not a businessman.
GM:
And I also, if I really want to do something, I will go out and scout. If I know something as a potential cover, I will put more time into it than I'm getting paid for, because that's my production value.
MB:
Because it's going to be your name on it.
GM:
Yeah.
MB:
Yeah.
Q & A:
AUDIENCE:
Is generative AI, at this stage, a risk?
GM:
Yeah. I think it absolutely is. But also, I think Adobe has already begun licensing stock to feed its generative AI because in Photoshop you can do a generative fill. I can say I want to see more trees over here. I don't know whose trees they're taking from if I'm not providing a tree, but they're starting to pay licensing and I don't even know - it's probably cents on the pixel, right? Like very, very small.
And yet at the same time, my clients are asking me to provide the kind of things that AI will do. And in part it's much cheaper for them if I can say, well, "I can change that in post". "I can add that in post". And how much of that I decide to do depends on the client. And it's very case-by-case scenario now, but clients have the expectation of it whether or not I want to provide it.
MB:
Because they think it's just pushing the button.
GM:
And they and they see or they hear on commercials. I mean, the osmosis of how people are absorbing what it is, what it can do - like people who don't even know what post is say, "Oh, can you fix it in post?"
It's going to be a very contentious landscape. But it I mean, you know, when we switched to digital... I think we should always anticipate those. I mean, one of the things I so admire about you is you (Reid Callanan - Santa Fe Workshops) continue to stay agile, you continue to learn new things. And I think we all have to do that.
AUDIENCE:
When you shoot a job, do you know OWN THOSE NEGS?
GM:
Unless I sign a work-for-hire contract, yes.
AUDIENCE:
And you could do with them what you want?
GM:
Well there's always an embargo for print, right? So whoever I'm shooting for gets the embargo. They get to say "We debut the images, we're paying for them. We debut them."
Once they're out, I can re-license.
MB:
You're not doing exclusive licensing?
GM:
If it's a bigger client and they pay for a buyout, like when the California Almond Board paid for a buyout that was awesome! I won't use any of those ever again. But so much of what I do is so specific, a lot of my stuff is not re-licensable. No one cares about that farmer holding that beet, you know. Which is different than music photography where people are going for specific images of Jackson Browne or something like that.
AUDIENCE:
Do you have a stock agency that handles your work?
GM:
I don't.
MB:
I don't even know if stock is a viable thing anymore, right?
GM:
It is to some degree. I mean, Getty is still producing stock shoots. And those are still lucrative. I've never been that kind of photographer, though, where I like close down the terminal of a small airport, you know, set up a bunch of shots, that kind of thing. But honestly, I'm much more interested in just shooting the next thing than building a big stock archive. Maybe it's the double Gemini, it's the ADHD? I'm more excited to go out and think about the next thing.
AUDIENCE:
Are all your images copyrighted?
GM: No. I don't register the copyright for everything. I only register copyright for things that I think are more important.
MB:
If you don't register it, you still own it. It's just more difficult to receive damages if you sue.
GM:
That's my understanding.
AUDIENCE:
If anybody uses your image, you can go after them.
GM:
Now, there are a lot of services that will crawl Web sites looking for digital signatures and things like that. But again, most of my stuff is not the kind of stuff that - I mean, I would love it if farmers were as popular as rock artists, but they're not. I think they're as important. But the stuff I'm shooting is not the kind of stuff that people are going to steal, for the most part.
MB:
And you're not going to be able to afford to go after it.
GM:
I mean, I think about that. You know, you never know who's crawling through your website and doing all that kind of stuff. And Instagram. Who knows where it's being taken from Instagram. There's probably a magazine in India that shows my jewelry photography and I don't know about it.
AUDIENCE:
I'll go online and there's a picture of Bob Dylan, right? And I didn't give them permission.
GM:
Well, that's the difference between a 1960s Rock-n-Roll celebrity.
AUDIENCE:
And so I can go after that person.
GM:
Yeah, you can. I mean, it's going be a lot of time, a lot of energy. I mean, Jim Marshall had three lawyers, I think, who were constantly going after, you know, for that one, Johnny Cash shot at Folsom Prison. Because that was his single most stolen image. But I'm just not interested in being that business. And most of what I send out, unless it's specifically to a client, nothing that's online is of resolution that can actually be used.
AUDIENCE:
There are several law firms now that have employees whose sole job is to pore through pictures and text looking for copyright infringement, and then they try to get you to...
GM:
Like an ambulance chaser. Well, ASMP is in the process, I think I can share this, of partnering with a company called Rights Click which you can retain to go after, you know, hunting down your images.
MB:
This kind of leads me into this: I just wanted to mention this for a second because now, I think with AI, it's become even more important than when I first kind of proposed it to ASMP about ten years ago. But I've just been thinking that it would be really nice if photographer credits now included a verb - "photographed by"...
GM
Oh, I like that.
MB:
Because if it's a "real" photograph by a "real" photographer, a person stood in that place and took that picture.
GM
Yes.
MB:
There's a bunch of other resources for pictures, now completely non-photographic pictures that are being made up by AI. But I'd love to see this start to be included in photographers' contracts.
GM
I like that. And I like the typography there.
MB:
And I think that's it.
GM
Thank you, Mark. And thank you Pilar for hosting. Thank you so much.